Rhino Horn Knobkerrie ?

katana · 17th July 2009, 11:53 PM

Hi

,
another recent acquistion....bought cheaply, thought originally by the seller to be wood. But after receiving it realised it was better than that...a hot pin test on shaft / ball confirmed the smell of 'burning hair' ....keratin

Magnifying glass confirmed tubular grain at either end. Feels very 'grippy' .... even with a 'wetted' hand .....Rhino ??

Carved crosshatching to handle end ...with a 'lanyard' hole bored using some sort of 'primative' drill, definately not by a modern drill. Old patina, OAL 22" ......is this considered a knobkerrie ?, Rhino horn for a drum stick seems to be a bit extravagent.

Be very interested in other forumite's views, thank you

Kind Regards David

.

David · 18th July 2009, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Rhino horn for a drum stick seems to be a bit extravagent.

Well David, i know very little about knobkerries and i am not at all certain about the purpose or uses of this particular stick, but i will remark that given the extreme importance of the drum in African societies i would not realyl find it all that extravagant for the stick of an important ceremonial drum to have a drum stick made of rhino horn. Certainly it's not too farfetched that a drum like the one posted below might warrant such an important striking tool.

VANDOO · 18th July 2009, 03:34 AM

KNOBKERRIES MADE OF RHINO HORN ARE TO BE FOUND IF YOU ARE VERY LUCKY. YOURS IS ABOUT THE RIGHT LEGNTH ALL THOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN LONGER EXAMPLES. IF IT HAS ENOUGH WEIGHT AND HEFT TO CRACK A SKULL I WOULD GO WITH KNOBKERRIE. I HAD NEVER HEARD OF DRUMSTICKS MADE OF IT BUT SEE NO REASON WHY IT COULD NOT BE USED AS RHINO WAS CONSIDERED TO HAVE STRONG MAGICAL AND MEDICINAL PROPERTIES BY MANY SOCIETYS AND DRUMS OFTEN HELD AN IMPORTANT PLACE IN THOSE TRIBES.
THERE SHOULD BE SOME OTHER POSTS MENTIONING THEM SO A SEARCH OF ALL THE ARCHIVES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. CONGRADULATIONS ON A RARE FIND YOU LUCKY VARMIT

katana · 18th July 2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well David, i know very little about knobkerries and i am not at all certain about the purpose or uses of this particular stick, but i will remark that given the extreme importance of the drum in African societies i would not realyl find it all that extravagant for the stick of an important ceremonial drum to have a drum stick made of rhino horn. Certainly it's not too farfetched that a drum like the one posted below might warrant such an important striking tool.

Hi David,

I think I should have made the reason for my comment more clearly

. Agreed the drum was/is important to African culture. Rhino horn has certain characteristics that make it ideal for knife / sword handles ....princibly its 'grippiness' when wet with moisture (sweat) or blood ...so for any hand-held weapon it would be useful. I had searched for any examples of drum sticks made from Rhino.....but can find no reference whatsoever. All the 'knobkerrie' shaped drumsticks I have found in various Anthropological websites are wooden. Lovely drum that you posted ...certainly deserves a 'status' drumstick.

Hi Vandoo,
thank you for your comments .....although not big ( knobkerrie envy ....is there such a thing

) it would certainly make you 'see stars' ....the very slight flex in the shaft possibly adding to the impact 'energy'. I agree ......'lucky Varmit' ....a surprised one

....never thought that this could Rhino (only had pictures and had not handled it before buying)

Thanks Colin,
I am now 90% certain this is Rhino horn .....

I cant find similar sized examples .... can anyone post some. I remember Tim had a very good example, but was much larger ( knobkerrie envy.....again

)

Kind Regards David

spiral · 18th July 2009, 04:57 PM

Congratulations David, certanly looks like rhino horn to me as well.

spiral

katana · 19th July 2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... can anyone post some. I remember Tim had a very good example, but was much larger ( knobkerrie envy.....again

)

Kind Regards David

Just remembered it was not a knobkerrie, but a staff/walking stick .

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Congratulations David, certanly looks like rhino horn to me as well.

spiral

Thanks Spiral.

Unfortunately there seems to be little information on the web, regarding Rhino Horn Knobkerries. I would be grateful for any further info.

Here is a similar example that has sold on Artzi's site.....

"......A rare example of a Zulu Knobkerri war club carved entirely of Rhino Horn. It is 16 ½ inches long made from a beautiful piece of Rhino Horn with a 2 X 2 inches rounded nicely symmetrical head....."

katana · 29th July 2009, 10:46 AM

Other than the two examples that were sold on Artzi's site and a Rhino horn hafted axe ..sold at auction. I cannot find any others to help me value this for insurance purposes ie sold prices are not shown). If anyone has an idea as to approximate value could you please PM me.

I did find a reference to the the fact that Rhino horn was literally 'worth its weight in gold' (ref. dated 2005) ....at todays gold prices it would mean, for this knobkerrie, over £800 .....which seems far too much !!

I hope I have not breached the rules (discussing possible value)

Regards David

katana · 29th July 2009, 01:09 PM

Thank you Lew, Tribalarms and Rick (RSword),

for your PM's , very much appreciated.

Kind Regards David

colin henshaw · 18th July 2009, 07:02 AM

Hi David

It might well be rhino horn, it was used to make knobkerries in both East and South Africa, but they are rare due to the scarcity of the material. Objects made from this material tended to be reserved for chiefs and important people. Rhino horn was also occasionally used in axe handles.

Difficult to judge from the photos, but from the curve (which follows the shape of the horn), could well be rhino horn - in which case many congratulations.

Colin

colin henshaw · 30th July 2009, 07:49 PM

Hi

I don't wish to be negative on such a rare piece, but I am a bit dubious about the "phallus" carving to the head of the knobkerrie. I have in the past seen similar embellishments done to wooden clubs and other tribal objects, to make them more "exotic" and enhance the value. Very easy to do and the application of some dirt etc., gives an old appearance.

Difficult to be 100% sure either way, but still a good object.

Regards
Colin

Tim Simmons · 30th July 2009, 09:06 PM

Colin, I am not sure about phallic imagery being later additions. This item with three faces has a phallic element which is clearly not a recent adaption. The item is 53cm long. I believe these tri-face things are from Ethiopia. I am gathering information to back this idea, but will take a day or two to illustrate my thinking. It is quite possible that in the southern parts in the not too distant past Rhino were present. I could believe we might be looking at related items. There may be questions about the depiction of a foreskin regards to male circumsission. There was an early 80s band called the 4skins.

katana · 31st July 2009, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi

I don't wish to be negative on such a rare piece, but I am a bit dubious about the "phallus" carving to the head of the knobkerrie. I have in the past seen similar embellishments done to wooden clubs and other tribal objects, to make them more "exotic" and enhance the value. Very easy to do and the application of some dirt etc., gives an old appearance.

Difficult to be 100% sure either way, but still a good object.

Regards
Colin

Hi Colin,
thank you for your input, I can only say that IMHO the patina on this seems genuine. I bought this from a seller that does not sell arms, ethnographic items or antiques, and as far as I know was 'in the family' for a while.....a 'sleeper' in the true sense of the word. The dirt is too well ingrained and appears to be a build-up over time, rather than an application of 'one layer'. The horn seems to be quite old, and has suffered minor damage to the 'knob' which also appears to have occured a long time ago. I will try and find out further details as to how the seller gained possession of this object ....perhaps it would provide more details.

Assuming everything is genuine.....would South Africa be a likely source of this knobkerrie ?

Regards David

colin henshaw · 31st July 2009, 07:54 AM

Hi David

Most likely the knobkerrie is from Southern Africa, the East African ones (rungus) tend to have a more pointed egg-shape, with a small collar or step below the head.

In which case, your example could be quite early (19th century) as the Europeans managed to wipe out most of the wildlife fairly quickly...

Colin

Tim Simmons · 31st July 2009, 12:48 PM

Just wanted to add this as it is quite interesting. It could also be a question, are these phallic stick clubs/batons possibly an Ethiopian tradition? I was hoping to include an ebay picture of the same three head motif on another stick only the size of a walking stick or staff but sadly I must have deleted it by mistake when clearing watched items. Here is a box, a suspect a snuff box judging by the black powder remains inside, carved as a bible. Look at the carved letters. The stick has one less but I think they are meant to be the same word. They are carved in the same manner but not by the same hand or in the same time. A coincidence the carvers having the same name? The name of a place of origin? I do not know but just goes to show one has to look far and wide for clues.

tribalarms · 31st July 2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Just wanted to add this as it is quite interesting. It could also be a question, are these phallic stick clubs/batons possibly an Ethiopian tradition?

It's a nice stick, but I am quite sure it is not Ethiopian.

Tim Simmons · 31st July 2009, 01:42 PM

You know I think you are right. I have been looking at Cyrillic alphabets. I did not know there were so many variations. I think I should start a new thread on this.

Tim Simmons · 31st July 2009, 03:43 PM

I do not want to hijack Davids thread but I have just got to add this. These are old 18th century examples, I can show 20th century examples. There is a tradition of this sort of wood work. In one you see the same red and blue/black colour work. The head on the club/baton could some kind of holy trinity? is the script cyrillic? or an attempt at carving one of the two scripts seen on Ethiopian artifacts? The largest picture is Romanian and painted on glass.

colin henshaw · 12th August 2009, 11:01 AM

Hi

I've come across this interesting reference to rhino-horn knobkerries in East Africa, from the book "The Great Rift Valley" by J W Gregory 1896.

It illustrates two points :-

a) Rhino-horn knobkerries were owned by important people (chiefs), perhaps
as a symbol of authority.

b) It seems they had a ceremonial type of function.

Regards.

17th July 2009, 11:53 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Rhino Horn Knobkerrie ? Hi , another recent acquistion....bought cheaply, thought originally by the seller to be wood. But after receiving it realised it was better than that...a hot pin test on shaft / ball confirmed the smell of 'burning hair' ....keratin Magnifying glass confirmed tubular grain at either end. Feels very 'grippy' .... even with a 'wetted' hand .....Rhino ?? Carved crosshatching to handle end ...with a 'lanyard' hole bored using some sort of 'primative' drill, definately not by a modern drill. Old patina, OAL 22" ......is this considered a knobkerrie ?, Rhino horn for a drum stick seems to be a bit extravagent. Be very interested in other forumite's views, thank you Kind Regards David . Attached Images

30th July 2009, 09:06 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Colin, I am not sure about phallic imagery being later additions. This item with three faces has a phallic element which is clearly not a recent adaption. The item is 53cm long. I believe these tri-face things are from Ethiopia. I am gathering information to back this idea, but will take a day or two to illustrate my thinking. It is quite possible that in the southern parts in the not too distant past Rhino were present. I could believe we might be looking at related items. There may be questions about the depiction of a foreskin regards to male circumsission. There was an early 80s band called the 4skins. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th July 2009 at 09:16 PM. Reason: SPELLING

31st July 2009, 12:48 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Just wanted to add this as it is quite interesting. It could also be a question, are these phallic stick clubs/batons possibly an Ethiopian tradition? I was hoping to include an ebay picture of the same three head motif on another stick only the size of a walking stick or staff but sadly I must have deleted it by mistake when clearing watched items. Here is a box, a suspect a snuff box judging by the black powder remains inside, carved as a bible. Look at the carved letters. The stick has one less but I think they are meant to be the same word. They are carved in the same manner but not by the same hand or in the same time. A coincidence the carvers having the same name? The name of a place of origin? I do not know but just goes to show one has to look far and wide for clues. Attached Images

31st July 2009, 03:43 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I do not want to hijack Davids thread but I have just got to add this. These are old 18th century examples, I can show 20th century examples. There is a tradition of this sort of wood work. In one you see the same red and blue/black colour work. The head on the club/baton could some kind of holy trinity? is the script cyrillic? or an attempt at carving one of the two scripts seen on Ethiopian artifacts? The largest picture is Romanian and painted on glass. Attached Images

12th August 2009, 11:01 AM	#18
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi I've come across this interesting reference to rhino-horn knobkerries in East Africa, from the book "The Great Rift Valley" by J W Gregory 1896. It illustrates two points :- a) Rhino-horn knobkerries were owned by important people (chiefs), perhaps as a symbol of authority. b) It seems they had a ceremonial type of function. Regards. Attached Images

18th July 2009, 03:34 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	KNOBKERRIES MADE OF RHINO HORN ARE TO BE FOUND IF YOU ARE VERY LUCKY. YOURS IS ABOUT THE RIGHT LEGNTH ALL THOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN LONGER EXAMPLES. IF IT HAS ENOUGH WEIGHT AND HEFT TO CRACK A SKULL I WOULD GO WITH KNOBKERRIE. I HAD NEVER HEARD OF DRUMSTICKS MADE OF IT BUT SEE NO REASON WHY IT COULD NOT BE USED AS RHINO WAS CONSIDERED TO HAVE STRONG MAGICAL AND MEDICINAL PROPERTIES BY MANY SOCIETYS AND DRUMS OFTEN HELD AN IMPORTANT PLACE IN THOSE TRIBES. THERE SHOULD BE SOME OTHER POSTS MENTIONING THEM SO A SEARCH OF ALL THE ARCHIVES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. CONGRADULATIONS ON A RARE FIND YOU LUCKY VARMIT

18th July 2009, 04:57 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Congratulations David, certanly looks like rhino horn to me as well. spiral

29th July 2009, 10:46 AM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Other than the two examples that were sold on Artzi's site and a Rhino horn hafted axe ..sold at auction. I cannot find any others to help me value this for insurance purposes ie sold prices are not shown). If anyone has an idea as to approximate value could you please PM me. I did find a reference to the the fact that Rhino horn was literally 'worth its weight in gold' (ref. dated 2005) ....at todays gold prices it would mean, for this knobkerrie, over £800 .....which seems far too much !! I hope I have not breached the rules (discussing possible value) Regards David

29th July 2009, 01:09 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Lew, Tribalarms and Rick (RSword), for your PM's , very much appreciated. Kind Regards David

18th July 2009, 07:02 AM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi David It might well be rhino horn, it was used to make knobkerries in both East and South Africa, but they are rare due to the scarcity of the material. Objects made from this material tended to be reserved for chiefs and important people. Rhino horn was also occasionally used in axe handles. Difficult to judge from the photos, but from the curve (which follows the shape of the horn), could well be rhino horn - in which case many congratulations. Colin

30th July 2009, 07:49 PM	#10
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi I don't wish to be negative on such a rare piece, but I am a bit dubious about the "phallus" carving to the head of the knobkerrie. I have in the past seen similar embellishments done to wooden clubs and other tribal objects, to make them more "exotic" and enhance the value. Very easy to do and the application of some dirt etc., gives an old appearance. Difficult to be 100% sure either way, but still a good object. Regards Colin

31st July 2009, 07:54 AM	#13
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi David Most likely the knobkerrie is from Southern Africa, the East African ones (rungus) tend to have a more pointed egg-shape, with a small collar or step below the head. In which case, your example could be quite early (19th century) as the Europeans managed to wipe out most of the wildlife fairly quickly... Colin

31st July 2009, 01:42 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	You know I think you are right. I have been looking at Cyrillic alphabets. I did not know there were so many variations. I think I should start a new thread on this.