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#1 |
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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Hi
I found this piece recently, and would like to ask if there are any Native American weapons/material specialists on the forum who can help out with identification etc ? Looking over the internet, it seems these sort of objects were used as a type of warrior's armour, also ornamentation. (There was a different type of a similar construction worn by women). Apparently they have continued to be made into modern times ? - but this one seems to have some age. Anyway, any information would be helpful, and thanks in advance. |
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#2 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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YOU SEEM TO HAVE DONE MOST OF THE RESEARCH THE ONLY THING I CAN ADD IS YOU CAN JUDGE THE AGE MOSTLY BY THE CONDITION AND WEAR ON THE LEATHER. THIS SHOULD GIVE YOU SOME IDEA IF THE ITEM WAS ACTUALLY WORN AND USED AND A CLUE AS TO ITS AGE. THESE ARE STILL WORN AS PART OF THE REGALIA DURING POWWOWS AND DANCE CONTESTS. SOMETIMES WHEN A OLD PERSON DIES OR A YOUNG PERSON GROWS UP THESE COME ON THE MARKET. THEY ARE ALSO MADE FOR SALE TOO.
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#3 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
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Looks super to me. Clearly not recent. The only reference I have is that they are jewelry. The bone is too fine to be effective as armour. Very nice.
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#4 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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While I am far from being a specialist on American Indian material culture, what I have learned is that these type accoutrements were more of a 'medicine' or talismanic sort of item. These are fashioned from what are termed 'hair pipes' in thier parlance, and in earlier times were actually made of dentalium (mollusk shells), most of these heavily traded from Northwest Indian tribes. Many of the beads and wampum shells used in other forms of accoutement came from trade through the Northeast, though some shells from this source were also used for 'hair pipes'.
By about the 1860s and especially during the Reservation Period, these hair pipes were being fashioned from bone, and actually while much was likely from buffalo, good volume began to come from livestock firms in Chicago and New York using cattle legbones. There was considerable demand for these and varying versions of these breastplates were made, not just by tribal peculiarity but personal adaption. Apparantly by WWI demand for these had waned (according to John C. Ewers, "Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment", Smithsonian Bulletin 164, 1957, Anthropological Papers #50, pp.29-85). It seems that these type breastplates became more of a traditional costume item used ceremonially later in the 20th century and are of course produced still commercially, while many are authentically created and used in Native American ceremony today. While it does not seem that these would have been terribly effective in most combat instances, especially with the advent of firearms, it must be remembered that these were characteristically talismanic much in the way of the 'war shirts' which were often decorated with honors and charm type symbols. Very nice example, and it is fantastic to see interest in the extremely important topic of Native American weaponry and material culture, which deserves far more attention here. * Barry who can ever forget the great photo of you in the war bonnet!!~! ![]() |
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#5 |
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Very nice breast plate. And it does seem to have some age to it. As stated, these are being made now, and some are "patinated", to look old. They were magically expected to deflect enemy weapons. In the same way, that Japanese Senninbari (One Thousand Stitch Belts) were believed to stop bullets.
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#6 |
Arms Historian
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Location: Route 66
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soliloquy cont.
Discovered more information which somewhat counters my earlier comments concerning the hair pipe breastplate being a medicine or talismanic item. Apparantly the design of these derives from a rod type armor fashioned of wood dowels sewn together used in the Northeast culture area. The use of bones, hollowed shells and rolled copper have quite early history for adornment. The first use of the term 'hair pipe' c. 1767 in the Ohio Valley referring to tubular beads traded from 'wampum' trade business in New Jersey. These beads were from West Indian conches and arrived in New York often as ships ballast. These were traded to tribes in the upper Missouri River regions. According to the author, David E. Jones, "Native North American Armor, Shields and Fortifications" , the Comanches created the hair pipe breastplate around 1854, and by the early 1870s the fashion was seen widely with the Plains tribes. In this outstanding reference, the author notes that these breastplates were almost universally linked to male warriors along with high status and wealth, rather than the talismanic imbuement I earlier presumed. An interesting perspective that is shown by the author, further defeating the idea of these intended as armor, besides being fragile and unlikely to provide any useful protection, is the suggestion that Plains warriors were entirely ready to die in battle. Such precautions would have been contrary to the ideals and philosophy of most of these warriors, particularly those of the many warrior societies. This is well shown in the Lakota adage used by Sitting Bull, "..today is a good day to die". This seems quite contrary to the note I made earlier to the 'war shirts' which were indeed intended as talismanically imbued to protect the wearer from bullets. It would seem that tribally there were factions of the warrior groups quite separated philosophically with those seeking protection and those of the warrior societies who were quite willing to accept death in battle. It would seem that notations of these breastplates being worn in battle would have more to do with the personal pride of the warrior going into battle knowing well it may be his last, than of protective armor. These of course would seem to in certain cases become traditional regalia for warriors of these warrior societies. A 1916 study in the Teton-Dakota division however revealed little evidence of armor as a symbol, fetish or weapon. |
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#7 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
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Very nice piece. I have seen the older and newer forms of this. I even knew someone in the Native American community here that made them out of cane.
For the most part, they were used by Plains tribes, especially the Sioux groups. Side note: I have a choker made of this stuff hand made and gifted to me from a Native American full blood friend years ago. |
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#8 |
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Many thanks to those who have input on this item, especially to Jim for his comprehensive and detailed response. Very useful information.
On the subject of Native American Indians and for anyone with an interest - I read in the newspaper yesterday that the National Portrait Gallery, London has a new exhibition of paintings of Native Americans, by George Catlin, last shown in London in the 1840s... |
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#9 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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This topic came up before. These are definitely not armor; they're big pieces of bead work. Look and see if there are any flat places on the bone beads. That is one of the signs my grandmother told me to always look for, although these days they probably fake that as well.
Just because you are prepared to die in battle, doesn't mean you won't try to avoid it. We did carry shields after all. |
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#10 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Hi Aiontay, Actually this topic certainly has come up, but I cannot recall how long it has been. Its always great to see the subject of American Indian weaponry come up as it is one I find fascinating and enjoy learning more about. I do feel a bit awkward though trying to describe what is often perceived about the perspective held on certain matters within another culture, when clearly I am only an observer, and obviously do not have first hand access. This is why I often write in depth (and thank you so much Colin for reading my posts and for the personal acknowledgement, very much appreciated), so I can try to show various aspects of the topic. I think in my post #6 I did note the fact that these breastplates were mostly decorative and evolved from beadwork, describing trade 'hair pipes' from New York into the upper Missouri River regions, which were actually 'beads' fashioned from shells. I also tried to clarify my earlier note regarding the ethos of the Plains warriors in their warrior societies as described by author David E. Jones ("Native North American Armor, Shields and Fortifications", 2004, p.45). In his description Jones notes the death haunted warrior songs of these groups, and asks, "...how could a warrior sing 'I am the one who wishes to die' and strap on a six ply rawhide vest, war shirt and helmet?". He goes on to cite references from early writer Robert H. Lowie ("Anthropological Papers of the American Museum of Natural History", Vol. 11, part 11, p.846, 'The Kiowa Warrior',1916) who notes the chant of some Kiowa warriors, "..now I am gone. I am going to leave you. I will not run anymore". The Crow warriors of the Fox Society sang, "...listen you foxes, I want to die" (Lowie, op. cit. 1913, p.158, Vol. 11, "Crow Military Societies"). In my subsequent post I pointed out that despite these apparant death oriented ethos among warriors of these societies, clearly there was a much larger character of self preservation among tribal warriors in general. Lowie apparantly also noted that despite the contrary attitude of the warrior society members they paradoxically honored the custom that the loss of a single man in battle negated any cause for celebration at its end regardless of outcome. In reviewing these references and the amazing detail included by these anthropologists, the most important factor I have realized is the absolute brilliance of the warriors of these tribes, ever expanding my admiration not only of them, but of Native American tribes overall and thier culture. All best wishes, Jim |
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#11 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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THESE WERE NOT A COMMON PART OF DRESS OWNED OR WORN BY ALL TRIBE MEMBERS. THEY SHOWED WEALTH AND POSITION OF PEOPLE IN THE TRIBE AND WERE EARNED BY THOSE WHO EXCELLED. TRIBAL LIFE DID NOT REWARD THOSE WHO DID NOT DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR THE TRIBE AND THE MORE VALUABLE YOU WERE TO THE TRIBE THE MORE HONOR AND RESPECT YOU RECEIVED. ALONG WITH THAT POSITION CAME THE WEALTH IN THE FORM OF THINGS LIKE THESE BREASTPLATES.
TODAY THEY ARE WORN BY THOSE ABLE TO AFFORD THEM TO POWWOWS AND CEREMONIES. I MADE THE MISTAKE OF ASKING AN OSSAGE AT A CEREMONIE IF THE COSTUMES BEING WORN WERE THE ORIGINAL OSAGE TRADITIONAL DRESS OR IF SOME THINGS HAD BEEN INCORPORATED FROM OTHER TRIBES. I WAS TOLD IN NO UNCERTIAN TERMS THAT THESE WERE NOT COSTUMES BUT THE UNIFORMS OF THE WARRIORS OF THE TRIBE AND I COULD CALL THEM REGALIA BUT NOT COSTUMES. END OF DISCUSSION AND I STILL HAD MY HAIR ![]() I STILL WONDER IF THE REGALIA HAS STAYED TRUE TO THE TRIBES ORIGINAL FORMS OR IF IT HAS BEEN CHANGED OVER THE YEARS. AT THE POWOWS WHERE FANCY DANCE REGALIA ARE USED. OFTEN THE DANCER WITH THE COOLEST COSTUME HAS THE EDGE. SO I CAN SEE THAT AS A POSSIBLE INFLUENCE TO ADD SOMETHING IMPRESSIVE FROM ANOTHER TRIBE TO YOUR REGALIA. ANOTHER POSSIBLE INFLUENCE WERE THE EARLY WILD WEST SHOWS UNDOUBTABLE BUFFALOW BILL ADDED THINGS TO TRADITIONAL COSTUMES TO MAKE THEM LOOK MORE SAVAGE OR IMPRESSIVE FOR THE SHOW. MANY PICTURES AND POSTERS FROM THESE SHOWS SHAPED THE IMAGE OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES AND HAD NO MORE ACCURACY IN THEIR PORTRAYEL THAN HOLLYWOOD DID. HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES OF THIS SORT OF BREASTPLATE BEING WORN. 1 TWO PICTURES ARE SOUIX TRIBE 2. PICTURE PONCA CHIEF 3. COMANCHIE WARRIOR 4. SEVERAL SOUIX WARRIORS TAKEN IN 1880 5. UTE TRIBE TAKEN IN 1800S 6. DON'T KNOW THE TRIBE OR DATE TAKEN. |
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#12 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
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Barry I can tell you this much - at today's powwows the Cherokee take on regalia based on Plains garb because they no longer have much of their own anymore.
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