Brass Dagger

Robert · 22nd November 2006, 06:09 PM

Here is another dagger that I just picked up. It is probably of Ilocano design just like the last few that I have posted. The difference with this one is that it is made of either brass or bronze. I guess I'll find out when it arrives. The grip is made of horn. What can anyone tell me about the significance of using brass for blades if any other than steel not being available? Was there any special reasons for using this material for a knife or dagger of this vintage? Thanks for any help that anyone can offer. These pictures are from the auction and the only ones that I have right now. I will try to post better pictures of it after it arrives.

Robert

Robert · 29th November 2006, 05:56 AM

The dagger arrived today. I will try to post new pictures tomorrow. It is a very well made piece. The scabbard fittings are brass as well as the pommel, ferrell and cross-guard. The blade itself is either red brass or copper. Does anyone know of a simple way how to tell which metal it is?

Battara · 29th November 2006, 05:25 PM

Red brass still looks a little more yellow than copper and not as red. However, without the comparison, it is difficult. Most likely I would suspect red brass because it would be stiffer and would hold up much better than copper (a very soft material in comparison).

Rick · 29th November 2006, 07:15 PM

If I recall from reading Toer's works there is an associated purpose for a non ferrous blade in Jawa at least; this is more a Magik kind of attribute though.

There was a scene in one of the books where a person was assasinated in the street with a (brass/copper?) knife (not a keris) .

Robert · 29th November 2006, 09:11 PM

Battara and Rick,
Thank you for your interest and comments. I have compared the blade to a piece of red brass and an old piece of copper and the blade looks most likely to be made of copper. This seems to be a strange combination of materials to make a dagger from unless steel was at a premium or not available at the time it was made.

If it stops raining for a few minutes I will take new pictures. Should the brass and copper be polished or just cleaned with ren wax and a soft cloth?

Robert

Rick · 29th November 2006, 10:43 PM

I like it in patina myself.
This piece is most likely NOT made for want of steel.
In my opinion it has a specific purpose.

Copper can be work hardened cold.

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2006, 10:35 PM

Non ferrous weapons are very interesting and appear the world wide. I only really have a handling knowledge of African examples. They are not toys, even if they do not appear the strongest weapons. They could be used in magic, execution, and just simply status symbols like a modern day generals baton, an authoritative bauble like a lord mayor chain, wealth and so on. Your knife is very nice with a matching scabbard, looks purposeful indeed. I wonder if the full knowledge of these esoteric pieces is only divulged to those who matter. I have half a dozen or so, I know Freddy has some too.

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 06:47 PM

This is the only truly offence nonferrous weapon I have rather like a Tumbok, if that is the right spelling. It is an old weapon, the leather tassels on the scabbard are on the edge of existence, very time I admire it I wince. The marks on the blade and on the handle are most mysterious and simple, like runic script and other magic symbols. I am starting to warm to this thread, maybe we might see more nonferrous weapons. Perhaps these weapons are defence against harmful witchcraft. I believe modern western witchcraft is more fixated on iron?

Robert · 2nd December 2006, 08:55 PM

Hi Tim,
Nice dagger. Is the blade sharpened on one or both edges ? It has been difficult to find much general information on the mystical use of copper blades other than that it seems that they can be used as an energy focal point for either good or evil. I hope that someone comes up with more about this than I have been able to find.

Robert

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 09:13 PM

Hi Robert,
The dagger does not have sharp edges. Like most tumbok.

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 09:33 PM

I forgot about this rather special spear to my mind. I am sure it functioned more than just for show. I post a picture next to a sword so you can get a feel for how business like it is. Of all my weapons it is this one that I find a little scary? unpleasant? I think it is a lovely piece.

22nd November 2006, 06:09 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Brass Dagger Here is another dagger that I just picked up. It is probably of Ilocano design just like the last few that I have posted. The difference with this one is that it is made of either brass or bronze. I guess I'll find out when it arrives. The grip is made of horn. What can anyone tell me about the significance of using brass for blades if any other than steel not being available? Was there any special reasons for using this material for a knife or dagger of this vintage? Thanks for any help that anyone can offer. These pictures are from the auction and the only ones that I have right now. I will try to post better pictures of it after it arrives. Robert Attached Images

2nd December 2006, 09:33 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I forgot about this rather special spear to my mind. I am sure it functioned more than just for show. I post a picture next to a sword so you can get a feel for how business like it is. Of all my weapons it is this one that I find a little scary? unpleasant? I think it is a lovely piece. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 2nd December 2006 at 09:44 PM.

29th November 2006, 05:56 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The dagger arrived today. I will try to post new pictures tomorrow. It is a very well made piece. The scabbard fittings are brass as well as the pommel, ferrell and cross-guard. The blade itself is either red brass or copper. Does anyone know of a simple way how to tell which metal it is?

29th November 2006, 05:25 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Red brass still looks a little more yellow than copper and not as red. However, without the comparison, it is difficult. Most likely I would suspect red brass because it would be stiffer and would hold up much better than copper (a very soft material in comparison).

29th November 2006, 07:15 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	If I recall from reading Toer's works there is an associated purpose for a non ferrous blade in Jawa at least; this is more a Magik kind of attribute though. There was a scene in one of the books where a person was assasinated in the street with a (brass/copper?) knife (not a keris) .

29th November 2006, 09:11 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Battara and Rick, Thank you for your interest and comments. I have compared the blade to a piece of red brass and an old piece of copper and the blade looks most likely to be made of copper. This seems to be a strange combination of materials to make a dagger from unless steel was at a premium or not available at the time it was made. If it stops raining for a few minutes I will take new pictures. Should the brass and copper be polished or just cleaned with ren wax and a soft cloth? Robert

29th November 2006, 10:43 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I like it in patina myself. This piece is most likely NOT made for want of steel. In my opinion it has a specific purpose. Copper can be work hardened cold.

1st December 2006, 10:35 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Non ferrous weapons are very interesting and appear the world wide. I only really have a handling knowledge of African examples. They are not toys, even if they do not appear the strongest weapons. They could be used in magic, execution, and just simply status symbols like a modern day generals baton, an authoritative bauble like a lord mayor chain, wealth and so on. Your knife is very nice with a matching scabbard, looks purposeful indeed. I wonder if the full knowledge of these esoteric pieces is only divulged to those who matter. I have half a dozen or so, I know Freddy has some too.

2nd December 2006, 06:47 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This is the only truly offence nonferrous weapon I have rather like a Tumbok, if that is the right spelling. It is an old weapon, the leather tassels on the scabbard are on the edge of existence, very time I admire it I wince. The marks on the blade and on the handle are most mysterious and simple, like runic script and other magic symbols. I am starting to warm to this thread, maybe we might see more nonferrous weapons. Perhaps these weapons are defence against harmful witchcraft. I believe modern western witchcraft is more fixated on iron?

2nd December 2006, 08:55 PM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Tim, Nice dagger. Is the blade sharpened on one or both edges ? It has been difficult to find much general information on the mystical use of copper blades other than that it seems that they can be used as an energy focal point for either good or evil. I hope that someone comes up with more about this than I have been able to find. Robert

2nd December 2006, 09:13 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi Robert, The dagger does not have sharp edges. Like most tumbok.