Could use help identifying this flintlock pistol

tombstone777 · 2nd September 2009, 03:08 AM

Hello all! I've recently inherited this flintlock pistol and would love if you could help me identify it. It seems to me that it bears a strong resemblance to this gun http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002066.html but my barrel is much less engraved though the stock is very nicely carved and adorned with brass wire inlays. The lock very rusty and still moves a bit but is stuck in the full cock position. The barrrel, as you can see is coated with rust and after removing it I can see that it was not browned or blued. The butt piece is missing it's main "screw" or whatever you call it and the lock plate bolt heads are mostly rusted away.

It's pretty neat though and would love to know more about it. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. One of the photos shows the stock and barrel near the muzzle where there used to be a band. Any clue where to find the missing parts for a piece like this?

celtan · 2nd September 2009, 04:56 AM

Check if it has a patent vent in the inner aspect of the pan.

Does the hammer's screw move a if you try to unscrew it, or is it fixed/soldered?

Normally, the end of Hammer screws in the 18th C were pointy, if it is flat, it's a bad sign.

Usually, there are screws that go through the outer face of the lock, and engage the plate on the opposite side. The screw positions in yours do not seem to correspond in this manner.

Does it have any poincons, words, signs inscribed on the barrel?

There were fake guns made for decoration purposes during Victorian times, these had a very weak action spring, and couldn't fire. The wood work was rather elaborate.

If I were you, I would disarm the lock and check if the inner workings correspond to the Real McCoy.

G'luck!

M

tombstone777 · 5th September 2009, 06:04 AM

Hi again,

Not sure what you mean by a "patent vent" Celtan? (see attached pic of the barrel to see if the vent inlet looks legit) But in an answer to your other questions:

"Does the hammer's screw move a if you try to unscrew it, or is it fixed/soldered?" = Yes the hammer's screw moves and I can unscrew it.

"Usually, there are screws that go through the outer face of the lock, and engage the plate on the opposite side. The screw positions in yours do not seem to correspond in this manner." = I agree with you that many lock plates have screw ends that go out the exterior of the plate - but I have seen many that don't as well.

"Does it have any poincons, words, signs inscribed on the barrel?" = There are some faint inscribed patterns on the barrel, no makers marks or words - and I'm not quite sure what a poincon is... but I'm attaching an image that will show what is on the barrel.

"If I were you, I would disarm the lock and check if the inner workings correspond to the Real McCoy." = I have dismantled the weapon and I will ask you and the other forum memnbers to help me in ascertaining if it is the "real McCoy" or not.

I thank you again for your help an in sharing your knowledge.

Best Regards,
Tim

kahnjar1 · 5th September 2009, 07:18 AM

Hi,
In my opinion this IS the real thing and likely Belgian made for the eastern market. There appears to be a round circle on the barrel just forward of the stock wood. Although not clear this COULD be a Liege Proof Mark. If you can clean it up a bit it may become a little clearer.
These were made up until quite late (for flintlock) and some even VERY early 20th century. The reason for the late use of muzzleloader, and particularly flint, was that cartridges and percussion caps in eastern countries could be relativly hard to find, but powder and projectiles of all sorts were not. Hence the much later use of muzzleloaders.
Regards Stuart

Atlantia · 5th September 2009, 11:45 AM

I agree it looks real. My initial thoughts were Balkan/Turkish.
What a great restoration project for the coming winter!
Betweeen now and then get yourself all the little tools you'll need to remake some screws and bits.
Dremmel......

celtan · 5th September 2009, 05:31 PM

Hi Tim,

Everything looks legit. The type of lock suggests an european maker, although it is unusually decorated.

"Patent" means that it goes all the way through from pan to chamber. Poincons are the armourer's marks, hammered in the metal with dies.

Congrats! Nice acquisition.

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by tombstone777

Hi again,

Not sure what you mean by a "patent vent" Celtan? (see attached pic of the barrel to see if the vent inlet looks legit) But in an answer to your other questions:

"Does the hammer's screw move a if you try to unscrew it, or is it fixed/soldered?" = Yes the hammer's screw moves and I can unscrew it.

"Usually, there are screws that go through the outer face of the lock, and engage the plate on the opposite side. The screw positions in yours do not seem to correspond in this manner." = I agree with you that many lock plates have screw ends that go out the exterior of the plate - but I have seen many that don't as well.

"Does it have any poincons, words, signs inscribed on the barrel?" = There are some faint inscribed patterns on the barrel, no makers marks or words - and I'm not quite sure what a poincon is... but I'm attaching an image that will show what is on the barrel.

"If I were you, I would disarm the lock and check if the inner workings correspond to the Real McCoy." = I have dismantled the weapon and I will ask you and the other forum memnbers to help me in ascertaining if it is the "real McCoy" or not.

I thank you again for your help an in sharing your knowledge.

Best Regards,
Tim

Jim McDougall · 6th September 2009, 03:35 AM

Very interesting thread, as well as an intriguing gun!
As I am always interested in learning more on these early guns, and have always been attracted to these old flintlocks, it is fascinating to learn that they were still produced so much later than thought. Thank you for that information Stu.
Manuel, excellent tips in identifying and authenticating these pieces.
These are the kinds of things that are so helpful guys, thank you!

Tombstone, I hope you dont mind of I ask, but I'm always so envious whenever items come up that are inherited!!! I always hope that there is a genuine opportunity to establish provenance with a piece that has come in from outside the collecting community.
Can we know more about the circumstances on this piece, perhaps any history of how this piece came to the individual who previously owned it. If the person was not a collector, maybe more on thier personal history might say more about its origins.
I realize this may be personal, and if so please disregard, but in many cases these inherited items are presented with some degree of history and prove to be fascinating, even more so than this already intriguing piece.

Thank you,
All best regards,
Jim

tombstone777 · 6th September 2009, 05:47 PM

Hi Jim!

I too love to find out more about the provinence of these wonderful pieces of history and I will relay to you what little I know now. I inherited this from my sister-in-law a couple of weeks ago. Her Dad worked for Texaco I believe and he and his wife travelled extensively thoughout the world during his career and after retirement and I suppose you could consider him to have been a collector of sorts. He picked up weapons and other interesting pieces in his travels and, while I do not know where he got this particular gun, I'm sure that it was in the middle or near east, probably in the late 60's.

He passed away about 15 years ago and his wife has recently had multiple brain hemmorages which has rendered her all but comatose. So - no help there on where it was aquired. I will see if my sister-in-law can recall any stories about it - she does remember the story of how he aquired the WWII Katana (which I have another current post on) from a dutch sailor who claimed it was taken from a Japanese officer during the war.

I will pass along any more info that I receive so as to help in keeping the history of this piece alive. In the meantime I will work on cleaning it up a bit more to reveal more detail.

Any thoughts on how to clean the stock? It has quite a bit of inlaid wire (probably brass but could be silver - it's so patinated that I can't tell yet) and also bits of wire inserted almost like tiny, headless nails, in patterns along the inlaid wire.

I'll report back soon. Thanks again for the wealth of knowledge that's being shared!

2nd September 2009, 03:08 AM	#1
tombstone777 Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 14	Could use help identifying this flintlock pistol Hello all! I've recently inherited this flintlock pistol and would love if you could help me identify it. It seems to me that it bears a strong resemblance to this gun http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002066.html but my barrel is much less engraved though the stock is very nicely carved and adorned with brass wire inlays. The lock very rusty and still moves a bit but is stuck in the full cock position. The barrrel, as you can see is coated with rust and after removing it I can see that it was not browned or blued. The butt piece is missing it's main "screw" or whatever you call it and the lock plate bolt heads are mostly rusted away. It's pretty neat though and would love to know more about it. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated! P.S. One of the photos shows the stock and barrel near the muzzle where there used to be a band. Any clue where to find the missing parts for a piece like this? Attached Images

5th September 2009, 06:04 AM	#3
tombstone777 Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 14	Hi again, Not sure what you mean by a "patent vent" Celtan? (see attached pic of the barrel to see if the vent inlet looks legit) But in an answer to your other questions: "Does the hammer's screw move a if you try to unscrew it, or is it fixed/soldered?" = Yes the hammer's screw moves and I can unscrew it. "Usually, there are screws that go through the outer face of the lock, and engage the plate on the opposite side. The screw positions in yours do not seem to correspond in this manner." = I agree with you that many lock plates have screw ends that go out the exterior of the plate - but I have seen many that don't as well. "Does it have any poincons, words, signs inscribed on the barrel?" = There are some faint inscribed patterns on the barrel, no makers marks or words - and I'm not quite sure what a poincon is... but I'm attaching an image that will show what is on the barrel. "If I were you, I would disarm the lock and check if the inner workings correspond to the Real McCoy." = I have dismantled the weapon and I will ask you and the other forum memnbers to help me in ascertaining if it is the "real McCoy" or not. I thank you again for your help an in sharing your knowledge. Best Regards, Tim Attached Images

2nd September 2009, 04:56 AM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Check if it has a patent vent in the inner aspect of the pan. Does the hammer's screw move a if you try to unscrew it, or is it fixed/soldered? Normally, the end of Hammer screws in the 18th C were pointy, if it is flat, it's a bad sign. Usually, there are screws that go through the outer face of the lock, and engage the plate on the opposite side. The screw positions in yours do not seem to correspond in this manner. Does it have any poincons, words, signs inscribed on the barrel? There were fake guns made for decoration purposes during Victorian times, these had a very weak action spring, and couldn't fire. The wood work was rather elaborate. If I were you, I would disarm the lock and check if the inner workings correspond to the Real McCoy. G'luck! M

5th September 2009, 07:18 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi, In my opinion this IS the real thing and likely Belgian made for the eastern market. There appears to be a round circle on the barrel just forward of the stock wood. Although not clear this COULD be a Liege Proof Mark. If you can clean it up a bit it may become a little clearer. These were made up until quite late (for flintlock) and some even VERY early 20th century. The reason for the late use of muzzleloader, and particularly flint, was that cartridges and percussion caps in eastern countries could be relativly hard to find, but powder and projectiles of all sorts were not. Hence the much later use of muzzleloaders. Regards Stuart

5th September 2009, 11:45 AM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I agree it looks real. My initial thoughts were Balkan/Turkish. What a great restoration project for the coming winter! Betweeen now and then get yourself all the little tools you'll need to remake some screws and bits. Dremmel......

6th September 2009, 03:35 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Very interesting thread, as well as an intriguing gun! As I am always interested in learning more on these early guns, and have always been attracted to these old flintlocks, it is fascinating to learn that they were still produced so much later than thought. Thank you for that information Stu. Manuel, excellent tips in identifying and authenticating these pieces. These are the kinds of things that are so helpful guys, thank you! Tombstone, I hope you dont mind of I ask, but I'm always so envious whenever items come up that are inherited!!! I always hope that there is a genuine opportunity to establish provenance with a piece that has come in from outside the collecting community. Can we know more about the circumstances on this piece, perhaps any history of how this piece came to the individual who previously owned it. If the person was not a collector, maybe more on thier personal history might say more about its origins. I realize this may be personal, and if so please disregard, but in many cases these inherited items are presented with some degree of history and prove to be fascinating, even more so than this already intriguing piece. Thank you, All best regards, Jim

6th September 2009, 05:47 PM	#8
tombstone777 Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 14	Hi Jim! I too love to find out more about the provinence of these wonderful pieces of history and I will relay to you what little I know now. I inherited this from my sister-in-law a couple of weeks ago. Her Dad worked for Texaco I believe and he and his wife travelled extensively thoughout the world during his career and after retirement and I suppose you could consider him to have been a collector of sorts. He picked up weapons and other interesting pieces in his travels and, while I do not know where he got this particular gun, I'm sure that it was in the middle or near east, probably in the late 60's. He passed away about 15 years ago and his wife has recently had multiple brain hemmorages which has rendered her all but comatose. So - no help there on where it was aquired. I will see if my sister-in-law can recall any stories about it - she does remember the story of how he aquired the WWII Katana (which I have another current post on) from a dutch sailor who claimed it was taken from a Japanese officer during the war. I will pass along any more info that I receive so as to help in keeping the history of this piece alive. In the meantime I will work on cleaning it up a bit more to reveal more detail. Any thoughts on how to clean the stock? It has quite a bit of inlaid wire (probably brass but could be silver - it's so patinated that I can't tell yet) and also bits of wire inserted almost like tiny, headless nails, in patterns along the inlaid wire. I'll report back soon. Thanks again for the wealth of knowledge that's being shared!