Maker's mark ID help

shayde78 · 30th August 2017, 04:25 AM

I posted this thread in the Ethno forum for a koummya that appears to have a European blade. The is a partial maker's mark that I have not received a response regarding a possible ID, so I thought, if it is indeed European, the fine folks here could provide some insight.

For those interested, you can follow the above link for more pictures. I will, however, post a pic of the full blade, and another of the partial mark. I welcome any feedback regarding the possible European origin of this blade.

Thanks all.

shayde78 · 10th September 2017, 07:43 PM

Hi all,

I found this page of illustrated makers' marks. In you opinions, any chance the mark on the pictured blade corresponds to Juan Martinez as shown below. It isn't an exact match, but I am uncertain how accurately the illustrations depict the actual marks.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2017, 05:17 AM

That was a pretty good call Shayde, and that plate from Wagner has always been a good source for interesting marks. Actually these makers often had a number of marks used, not just one, especially on Spanish blades.
It seems pretty clear that this is some sort of bird, eagle...the talons and tail feathers are still visible while the rest has been lost.

This blade is typical koummya configuration, and not a repurposed European blade, but it is known that European marks were often imitated by artisans in African entrepots. It seems more likely that this blade was marked by an artisan with spurious mark which could have been from any number of sources seen by them.

Double head eagles were used in variation from Passau in 16th c. to various Solingen makers in mid 17th, but none had these pronounced leg and talons that I can locate. That is not to say that a local artisan would not add such features, as these forked type claw designs are well known in various marks and symbols used in Saharan contexts into Sudanese, and these often transmitted considerably via trade interaction.

Interestingly the 'koummya' is a form of khanjhar and well known across the Maghreb well into Algerian areas, so Saharan influences not unusual.

shayde78 · 13th September 2017, 06:32 PM

Thank you, Jim. As always, your comments are appreciated.

So, to you the mark has Saharan features? I was hoping for European, as it seems unlikely to match to an African maker as the records are so scarce. Despite the classic Koummya shape, the bevels and ricasso seemed decidedly European to me. Oh well, still the nicest blade I have seen in person on one of these

Thanks again

shayde78 · 19th October 2017, 12:43 AM

With some recent focus on makers' marks, I thought I'd revisit this query. I'm hoping someone can add to Jim's assessment and maybe narrow things down more. I'm convinced the mark is well formed enough to have been used more than once so, perhaps, someone has seen another example.
Thanks for any additional thoughts.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2017, 11:35 PM

Shayde, I hope someone out there might have exposure to more of these and possibly have seen such a marking. Being at the forte suggests an arsenal or perhaps makers mark, but might be otherwise as well.
Often coins have clues to state or official markings so maybe a reference on coins might offer some help?
All I could find was 'Eagle of Saladin' which was situated in Egypt mostly.

30th August 2017, 04:25 AM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Maker's mark ID help I posted this thread in the Ethno forum for a koummya that appears to have a European blade. The is a partial maker's mark that I have not received a response regarding a possible ID, so I thought, if it is indeed European, the fine folks here could provide some insight. For those interested, you can follow the above link for more pictures. I will, however, post a pic of the full blade, and another of the partial mark. I welcome any feedback regarding the possible European origin of this blade. Thanks all. Attached Images

10th September 2017, 07:43 PM	#2
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Hi all, I found this page of illustrated makers' marks. In you opinions, any chance the mark on the pictured blade corresponds to Juan Martinez as shown below. It isn't an exact match, but I am uncertain how accurately the illustrations depict the actual marks. Thank you for your thoughts. Attached Images

11th September 2017, 05:17 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	That was a pretty good call Shayde, and that plate from Wagner has always been a good source for interesting marks. Actually these makers often had a number of marks used, not just one, especially on Spanish blades. It seems pretty clear that this is some sort of bird, eagle...the talons and tail feathers are still visible while the rest has been lost. This blade is typical koummya configuration, and not a repurposed European blade, but it is known that European marks were often imitated by artisans in African entrepots. It seems more likely that this blade was marked by an artisan with spurious mark which could have been from any number of sources seen by them. Double head eagles were used in variation from Passau in 16th c. to various Solingen makers in mid 17th, but none had these pronounced leg and talons that I can locate. That is not to say that a local artisan would not add such features, as these forked type claw designs are well known in various marks and symbols used in Saharan contexts into Sudanese, and these often transmitted considerably via trade interaction. Interestingly the 'koummya' is a form of khanjhar and well known across the Maghreb well into Algerian areas, so Saharan influences not unusual.

13th September 2017, 06:32 PM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you, Jim. As always, your comments are appreciated. So, to you the mark has Saharan features? I was hoping for European, as it seems unlikely to match to an African maker as the records are so scarce. Despite the classic Koummya shape, the bevels and ricasso seemed decidedly European to me. Oh well, still the nicest blade I have seen in person on one of these Thanks again

19th October 2017, 12:43 AM	#5
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	With some recent focus on makers' marks, I thought I'd revisit this query. I'm hoping someone can add to Jim's assessment and maybe narrow things down more. I'm convinced the mark is well formed enough to have been used more than once so, perhaps, someone has seen another example. Thanks for any additional thoughts.

19th October 2017, 11:35 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Shayde, I hope someone out there might have exposure to more of these and possibly have seen such a marking. Being at the forte suggests an arsenal or perhaps makers mark, but might be otherwise as well. Often coins have clues to state or official markings so maybe a reference on coins might offer some help? All I could find was 'Eagle of Saladin' which was situated in Egypt mostly.