floating melati?

[sirek]

I know the “name game” is being criticized here, but because I can’t find anything about this pamor, I want to try it here, hoping that someone knows something.
(a friend thought it was something with floating melati flowers)

[Bjorn]

Hi Sirek,

Based on the book "Pamoratlas", I would say it is pamor semanggi (clover).

According to the description this pattern increases one's reputation and some people feel this pamor increases one's luck owing to the presence of four-leaved clovers.

This is all from the Pamoratlas and I'm afraid I don't know anything about this pamor myself.

[sirek]

Hello Yuuzan
Semanggi did cross my mind, but had my doubts because the shape looks more like a Maltese cross (IMHO)

(image from the web: pamor Semanggi)

[A. G. Maisey]

I have not seen the "Pamor Atlas", I do not know who wrote it, I do not know what the sources for the information contained therein were.

I do know that I have never seen this pamor in an old blade (pre-WWII).

I saw this pamor for the first time maybe 15 or 20 years ago, in a blade from Madura. At that time I was told that it was a new pamor and that its name was "ron catur" :- ron = leaf (krama for godhong), catur = four (literary usage, Kawi).

In Javanese the word "semanggi" is the name of a herb that has three leaves, not four, and is used in food ; however in Indonesian the word "semanggi" translates as "clover".
It is also the name of a vegetable dish that uses a lot of spice.
It is also the name of a kampung in Solo.

I'm guessing here, but I feel that whoever coined the term "Semanggi" to describe this or another pamor, grabbed the nearest Indonesian dictionary to find a suitable term.
However, in Jawa, pamor names are correctly given in Javanese, not Indonesian.
A Malay name for a pamor can be acceptable when that pamor is a Malay pamor, and Indonesian is based on a form of Malay as it is spoken in Southern Sumatera.
But this pamor we're talking about comes from Madura, so it should have either a Madurese name, or a Javanese name, not an Indonesian or Malay name.

The variation between the name that may, or may not be able to be given to this pamor under discussion, according to the Pamor Atlas, and the name that I was given for it by an Empu of the Karaton Susuhunan in Surakarta, is just one of the reasons why I feel that when we seek names for things that we cannot understand we need to be very careful in respect of the name that we eventually accept as correct.

Technically this is a surface manipulated pamor that has been made in a similar way to udan mas. It is a reversal of the well-known Surakarta pamor "X", the pamor that in its current application recognises Pakubuwana X as an iconic figure, and in its original application was an early 20th century Karaton pamor.

EDIT

While I was writing the above the images of "pamor semanggi" were posted.

I personally regard the upper image as one of the variations of udan mas, and I cannot see the lower image clearly enough to guess at what it might be --- if I even have a name for it.

FURTHER EDIT

Lucky four leaf clovers in Jawa?

I really do think that this idea is stretching the Irish Connection just a wee bit too much.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Lucky four leaf clovers in Jawa?

I really do think that this idea is stretching the Irish Connection just a wee bit too much.

Yes, that was precisely my thought as well. While the concept of the lucky four-leaf clover does extend itself beyond the Emerald Isle i do not believe it is part of the cultures of the Indonesian archipelago.

[A. G. Maisey]

What is this "Pamor Atlas" anyway?

I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I cannot find any explanations online, I've never seen it, I don't know anything about it.

How credible is it?

[sirek]

All your comments are appreciated, many thanks!

While I read them, I think there is still an interest in a pamor-thread

originally posted by:A. G. Maisey
I do know that I have never seen this pamor in an old blade (pre-WWII).
I saw this pamor for the first time maybe 15 or 20 years ago, in a blade from Madura. At that time I was told that it was a new pamor and that its name was "ron catur" :- ron = leaf (krama for godhong), catur = four (literary usage, Kawi)

IMHO this kind of information is unique and important and could make a positive contribution for a pamor- thread, because it is not found in the existing books or mighty Google.( (in spite of their imperfections I guess for many still the largest/only source of information)

I hope someday someone picked this up, so that this type of information will not be lost in the future.