Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

spiral · 8th January 2007, 06:50 PM

Picked this up before Christmas.

It has a Bronze cast handle of women,goat,dagger & pan. {tormented faces with skullcaps on ends of crossgaurd, & cast scabbard of cathedral, crosses, alter candals etc.

It is just under 14 inches long. Both sides of scabbard are identical.

I have a few questians about it. Greatfull for any help.

1, Country of Origin? {I understand France & Germany are the commonest?}

2, Age of handle & scabbard?

3, origin, age & type of blade, a collector friend suggested its been cut & reshaped from the center section of 16th centry a Swiss Baslard blade or similar?

It would also be nice to see other exampls of these...

Both the blade & the reworking of it & the scabbard all seem very high quality.

The blade locks by friction in the scabbard in the last mm of movement. The scabbard is lined with what I think is solidified blue velvet.

Hopefully at least some of the questians about it even if not all can be answered here?

All veiws & thoughts welcome.

Thanks.
Spiral

spiral · 8th January 2007, 06:50 PM

I actuly found this the hardest knife to photo I ever have had....

RhysMichael · 8th January 2007, 07:19 PM

This may be the first non-contemporary Arthame I have ever seen. It is a very interesting piece. I notice there seems to be an upside down cross on the scabbard ( whick would make sense), perhaps an upsidedown church steeple and as you said candles, are there other symbols that I missed or cannot be seen in these pictures. The faces are interesting but on woodcarvings on furniture at least some cherubs from tudor times had tormeted or monstrous faces

could the item in the figures left hand represent a caldron ?

Rick · 8th January 2007, 07:33 PM

The symbolism is terrific.
The animal seeks the knife stuck in her belt.
She is surely going to make a sacrifice; something to catch the blood in her left hand ?

spiral · 8th January 2007, 08:05 PM

Thanks Guys, it seems an outstanding piece to me.

Rhysmichael the scabbard is a 3 door church or cathedral with as you say altar candals & 3 crucifixes all of which is upside down when the dagger is hilt up.

I rather wonder if it was modeled on an actual church to a degree? There a lots of small crosses alsoon the shuttered windows.

I understand that as Rick says that a pan would be used to capture the blood of the sacrafice

One of the faces when stuided under a lens is also covered in boils. I presume the skull caps represent Catholic clergy? & they are beneath the ground the woman {Lilith perhaps?} stands on.

Seems hard to find much info on these daggers & I am sure thier may be symbolism involved that I am missing. I wonder about the necklace for instance?

Spiral

David · 8th January 2007, 08:14 PM

Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic".

spiral · 8th January 2007, 08:45 PM

Bill I am sure the scabbard & handle were crafted & chased by the same hand at the same time.

I would also say the blade was older than the scabbard & handle were then made for it for its new life for a well to do satanist.

From what i have read it was usual to use older blades.

I totaly agree Athame is not the term i would use.

Thankyou David!

I say Satanic because that is who would use upside down churches & crucifixes, and perhaps the tormented clergy also featured? My understanding of Pagan woudnt include that.

I agree it may not be Lillith & your supposition that its a high priestess could be correct.

It would be usefull if someone had more expierience of these daggers & old satanic symbolism.

Spiral

Bill M · 8th January 2007, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

This may be the first non-contemporary Arthame I have ever seen. It is a very interesting piece. I notice there seems to be an upside down cross on the scabbard ( whick would make sense), perhaps an upsidedown church steeple and as you said candles, are there other symbols that I missed or cannot be seen in these pictures. The faces are interesting but on woodcarvings on furniture at least some cherubs from tudor times had tormeted or monstrous faces

could the item in the figures left hand represent a caldron ?

Not an Atheme scabbard. Could the scabbard be a later addition?

An atheme would not have upside-down or rightside-up cross. Christian symbols are not part of Wicca. Probably not Pagan either. Most likely something else.

Maybe satanist or some anti-christian cult.

Cauldrons have three legs and are more spherical.

Blade does look like a reshaped sword blade. Particularly the way the fullers go up into the handle.

I like it.

Tim Simmons · 8th January 2007, 10:00 PM

I am not at all sure this is "satanic" if you look very closely you will see that the crosses are not upside down. look at the arches and read from there and you will see the crosses are in the correct position. The lady has a tambourine in her hand and I think the goat has a far more philosophical meaning, as in scape goat? very hard to be sure. I cannot see any symbolism that is not of an ordinary Christian sect/brotherhood nature. Nice castings.

Yannis · 8th January 2007, 10:25 PM

I agree with Wolviex totally. This is a normal cathedral with its crosses. It has nothing to do with satanic. What is it?

It looked familiar till…

Have you ever read/seen the “The Hunchback of Notre Dame”????

Esmeralda, was a beautiful gypsy woman and she had a goat, Djali, I think. So she plays with her tambourine to tease us

Victor Hugo wrote the story in 1831 and it was best seller soon after that. So why not a “fantasy” knife of mid 19th century?

Rick · 8th January 2007, 10:33 PM

Ding !
Could be we have a winner.

katana · 8th January 2007, 11:30 PM

Yannis, I too think you are 'bang on' with your suggestion. The sheath seems to have many similarities to architectural features of Notre Dame.
Is the knife / dagger in her waist band relavent to the story ?

wolviex · 9th January 2007, 09:03 AM

I'm not going to claim that we should always look at the scabbard point up, and the blade example was just an example. What we have here is just, let's call it, 'artistic programme' which is intended to be viewed point up. In other case it wouldn't make any sense and, as Jim pointed it out, because you couldn't make a church with doors at narrower point. If someone would like to make any "occultic" upside-down crosses he wouldn't make a case with a church what is a lot of work.
The artistic programme might be different. We can see horizontal ones just like in Holbeins daggers and aswell there are horizontal inscriptions on the blade. Some of scabbards decoration are made point down and are making a whole composition with a handle. So there is no rule but logicality.
In my museum there is similiar in style dagger when you can see Otello with knife killing Desdemona, and it's pure romantic, 19th c. creation and yours looks just like that. It would be interesting to find out more iconographic sources for this lady.

David · 9th January 2007, 09:52 PM

Actually i am not much of a fan on Colin Wilson's take on occult history (although i find some of his science fiction entertaining).
I am curious how you imagine these "satanic" daggers were used. Were they merely for ceremonial dress or do you think they were actually used for blood sacrifice? Some of them, like the one with the owl motif, look pristine, as if they were hardly ever handled. Do you know whether this blade is edge sharp? What about yours? The example with the helmuted skeleton appears to use an old bayonet blade which doesn't seem edge sharp. Neither does the one from Liongate. It seems logical to me that for a blade to be a useful sacrifical tool it would need a very sharp edge.

spiral · 9th January 2007, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Actually i am not much of a fan on Colin Wilson's take on occult history (although i find some of his science fiction entertaining).
I am curious how you imagine these "satanic" daggers were used. Were they merely for ceremonial dress or do you think they were actually used for blood sacrifice? Some of them, like the one with the owl motif, look pristine, as if they were hardly ever handled. Do you know whether this blade is edge sharp? What about yours? The example with the helmuted skeleton appears to use an old bayonet blade which doesn't seem edge sharp. Neither does the one from Liongate. It seems logical to me that for a blade to be a useful sacrifical tool it would need a very sharp edge.

Me niether I just recall it as the first book of that ilk I read.

I am under the impresion that they were altar pieces also used in sacrifices & intiation cerimonys.

I thnk the BRL example is sharp, apparently many of these knives have the same blades as the daggers used by Napoleans mamelukes of the Imperial Guard.

cross section x Bayonets are only good for stabbing of course.

I presume the people who paid to have them made used them for any purpoise they wished?

Thats how humans usualy behave. IMHO

Spiral

8th January 2007, 06:50 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin? Picked this up before Christmas. It has a Bronze cast handle of women,goat,dagger & pan. {tormented faces with skullcaps on ends of crossgaurd, & cast scabbard of cathedral, crosses, alter candals etc. It is just under 14 inches long. Both sides of scabbard are identical. I have a few questians about it. Greatfull for any help. 1, Country of Origin? {I understand France & Germany are the commonest?} 2, Age of handle & scabbard? 3, origin, age & type of blade, a collector friend suggested its been cut & reshaped from the center section of 16th centry a Swiss Baslard blade or similar? It would also be nice to see other exampls of these... Both the blade & the reworking of it & the scabbard all seem very high quality. The blade locks by friction in the scabbard in the last mm of movement. The scabbard is lined with what I think is solidified blue velvet. Hopefully at least some of the questians about it even if not all can be answered here? All veiws & thoughts welcome. Thanks. Spiral

8th January 2007, 07:19 PM	#3
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	This may be the first non-contemporary Arthame I have ever seen. It is a very interesting piece. I notice there seems to be an upside down cross on the scabbard ( whick would make sense), perhaps an upsidedown church steeple and as you said candles, are there other symbols that I missed or cannot be seen in these pictures. The faces are interesting but on woodcarvings on furniture at least some cherubs from tudor times had tormeted or monstrous faces could the item in the figures left hand represent a caldron ?

8th January 2007, 07:33 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The symbolism is terrific. The animal seeks the knife stuck in her belt. She is surely going to make a sacrifice; something to catch the blood in her left hand ?

8th January 2007, 08:05 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Guys, it seems an outstanding piece to me. Rhysmichael the scabbard is a 3 door church or cathedral with as you say altar candals & 3 crucifixes all of which is upside down when the dagger is hilt up. I rather wonder if it was modeled on an actual church to a degree? There a lots of small crosses alsoon the shuttered windows. I understand that as Rick says that a pan would be used to capture the blood of the sacrafice One of the faces when stuided under a lens is also covered in boils. I presume the skull caps represent Catholic clergy? & they are beneath the ground the woman {Lilith perhaps?} stands on. Seems hard to find much info on these daggers & I am sure thier may be symbolism involved that I am missing. I wonder about the necklace for instance? Spiral

8th January 2007, 08:14 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic".

8th January 2007, 08:45 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Bill I am sure the scabbard & handle were crafted & chased by the same hand at the same time. I would also say the blade was older than the scabbard & handle were then made for it for its new life for a well to do satanist. From what i have read it was usual to use older blades. I totaly agree Athame is not the term i would use. Thankyou David! I say Satanic because that is who would use upside down churches & crucifixes, and perhaps the tormented clergy also featured? My understanding of Pagan woudnt include that. I agree it may not be Lillith & your supposition that its a high priestess could be correct. It would be usefull if someone had more expierience of these daggers & old satanic symbolism. Spiral

8th January 2007, 10:00 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am not at all sure this is "satanic" if you look very closely you will see that the crosses are not upside down. look at the arches and read from there and you will see the crosses are in the correct position. The lady has a tambourine in her hand and I think the goat has a far more philosophical meaning, as in scape goat? very hard to be sure. I cannot see any symbolism that is not of an ordinary Christian sect/brotherhood nature. Nice castings.

8th January 2007, 10:25 PM	#10
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I agree with Wolviex totally. This is a normal cathedral with its crosses. It has nothing to do with satanic. What is it? It looked familiar till… Have you ever read/seen the “The Hunchback of Notre Dame”???? Esmeralda, was a beautiful gypsy woman and she had a goat, Djali, I think. So she plays with her tambourine to tease us Victor Hugo wrote the story in 1831 and it was best seller soon after that. So why not a “fantasy” knife of mid 19th century?

8th January 2007, 10:33 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Ding ! Could be we have a winner.

8th January 2007, 11:30 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Yannis, I too think you are 'bang on' with your suggestion. The sheath seems to have many similarities to architectural features of Notre Dame. Is the knife / dagger in her waist band relavent to the story ?

9th January 2007, 09:03 AM	#13
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I'm not going to claim that we should always look at the scabbard point up, and the blade example was just an example. What we have here is just, let's call it, 'artistic programme' which is intended to be viewed point up. In other case it wouldn't make any sense and, as Jim pointed it out, because you couldn't make a church with doors at narrower point. If someone would like to make any "occultic" upside-down crosses he wouldn't make a case with a church what is a lot of work. The artistic programme might be different. We can see horizontal ones just like in Holbeins daggers and aswell there are horizontal inscriptions on the blade. Some of scabbards decoration are made point down and are making a whole composition with a handle. So there is no rule but logicality. In my museum there is similiar in style dagger when you can see Otello with knife killing Desdemona, and it's pure romantic, 19th c. creation and yours looks just like that. It would be interesting to find out more iconographic sources for this lady.

9th January 2007, 09:52 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Actually i am not much of a fan on Colin Wilson's take on occult history (although i find some of his science fiction entertaining). I am curious how you imagine these "satanic" daggers were used. Were they merely for ceremonial dress or do you think they were actually used for blood sacrifice? Some of them, like the one with the owl motif, look pristine, as if they were hardly ever handled. Do you know whether this blade is edge sharp? What about yours? The example with the helmuted skeleton appears to use an old bayonet blade which doesn't seem edge sharp. Neither does the one from Liongate. It seems logical to me that for a blade to be a useful sacrifical tool it would need a very sharp edge.