Indian Composite Piece For Comment

CourseEight · 17th July 2009, 09:29 PM

Recently ended on ebay, this sword is obviously a composite. When, and for use or resale, I have no idea. OAL 84 cm, hilt brass. But, I think the components themselves are of interest, and I was hoping for any observations anyone may have about either part (blade or handle).

Thanks!

--Radleigh

katana · 17th July 2009, 10:05 PM

Hi Courseeight,
Strange piece.....do I see wootz

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2009, 11:34 PM

Very unusual! This seems to reflect the very early hilt form of the khanda, and obviously not a weapon in the true sense as well as clearly composite. It seems there are traces of red paint? Perhaps a votive temple item?
The nagan blade and interpretations of early actual weapon types would suggest something perhaps used processionally or ceremonially.

Best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 18th July 2009, 12:11 PM

Hi Radleigh

This is indeed interesting.
I find myself wondering (As Jim clearly has) about the rather chunky Khanda hilt.
What struck me is the fact that the pommel appears to be a 'ring' as does the 'slot' for the 'blade'.
I am wondering if this was the hilt from a Khanda hilted Gargaz (or similar mace weapon) as that would explain the circular mounting holes to accomodate the thin steel shaft.
I can try and find a picture of one if anyone wants?

Regards
Gene

katana · 18th July 2009, 02:44 PM

Hi Radleigh,
The curves of the blade suggests to me that they were formed by 'stock removal' .....ground out sections of, I think , a Khanda blade. The re-inforcing strip seems also to have had the same treatment.
If correct, the next question is Why ? Perhaps there was severe edge damage and grinding the curves removed the damaged sections and gave the blade a new lease of life. I still believe the blade to be wootz so saving the blade makes even more sense as I believe that if wootz was reworked using a forge and anvil, the wootz patterning would be destroyed.
I think Gene has the hilt question covered ie a mace 'hilt'

Disappointingly the overall assembly of the piece seems a little crude. It would be a real shame that this composite was a 'modern' creation and a good wootz blade was re-worked (butchered) into a Naga style to try and increase its value (they do seem to be popular, commanding high prices)

Kind Regards David

.

CourseEight · 18th July 2009, 02:49 PM

Thanks fo the replies:

I'd love to see pictures of anything with a similar hilt construction, both in terms of the round pommel and round bolster, and also the unusual attachment of the hand guard. That does appear to be red (and black) laquer or paint on there, but I'll know more when I get it.

As for the blade, I'm keeping fingers crossed about its being wootz, but I'm not getting my hopes too up. Does anyone have examples of nagan-type blades that end with such a tip? Normally you see them tapering, rather than ending in the wide, almost spatulate way that khandas do. Also interesting is that the strap seems to be wiggly as well; never seen that either.

Thanks for your continued interest and observations!

--Radleigh

CourseEight · 18th July 2009, 02:55 PM

Hi David our replies crossed:

The thought had crossed my mind that the blade was originally a "normal" khanda, reworked in the nagan form. I guess my hope is that the curves in the blade seem to be reasonably well done (rather than the pointy types you see in for example later fillipino pieces). When I see the blade in person I'll know if there are ugly grind marks, whether it is sharp, etc. That will answer a lot of questions.

--Radleigh

Atlantia · 18th July 2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

Thanks fo the replies:

I'd love to see pictures of anything with a similar hilt construction, both in terms of the round pommel and round bolster, and also the unusual attachment of the hand guard. That does appear to be red (and black) laquer or paint on there, but I'll know more when I get it.

As for the blade, I'm keeping fingers crossed about its being wootz, but I'm not getting my hopes too up. Does anyone have examples of nagan-type blades that end with such a tip? Normally you see them tapering, rather than ending in the wide, almost spatulate way that khandas do. Also interesting is that the strap seems to be wiggly as well; never seen that either.

Thanks for your continued interest and observations!

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh

The paint also got me thinking. There are a reasonable amount of 'painted' (enameled, whatever) Khuds and Dhals that turn up. Certainly cheaper than Koftgari and it'd act as a rustproofing.
Wonder if your hilt was on a steel mace and the hilt was painted to 'disguise' its bronze construction rather than steel?

Regards
Gene

17th July 2009, 09:29 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Indian Composite Piece For Comment Recently ended on ebay, this sword is obviously a composite. When, and for use or resale, I have no idea. OAL 84 cm, hilt brass. But, I think the components themselves are of interest, and I was hoping for any observations anyone may have about either part (blade or handle). Thanks! --Radleigh Attached Images Last edited by CourseEight; 17th July 2009 at 10:19 PM.

18th July 2009, 02:44 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Radleigh, The curves of the blade suggests to me that they were formed by 'stock removal' .....ground out sections of, I think , a Khanda blade. The re-inforcing strip seems also to have had the same treatment. If correct, the next question is Why ? Perhaps there was severe edge damage and grinding the curves removed the damaged sections and gave the blade a new lease of life. I still believe the blade to be wootz so saving the blade makes even more sense as I believe that if wootz was reworked using a forge and anvil, the wootz patterning would be destroyed. I think Gene has the hilt question covered ie a mace 'hilt' Disappointingly the overall assembly of the piece seems a little crude. It would be a real shame that this composite was a 'modern' creation and a good wootz blade was re-worked (butchered) into a Naga style to try and increase its value (they do seem to be popular, commanding high prices) Kind Regards David . Attached Images Last edited by katana; 18th July 2009 at 05:19 PM.

17th July 2009, 10:05 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Courseeight, Strange piece.....do I see wootz Regards David

17th July 2009, 11:34 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Very unusual! This seems to reflect the very early hilt form of the khanda, and obviously not a weapon in the true sense as well as clearly composite. It seems there are traces of red paint? Perhaps a votive temple item? The nagan blade and interpretations of early actual weapon types would suggest something perhaps used processionally or ceremonially. Best regards, Jim

18th July 2009, 12:11 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Radleigh This is indeed interesting. I find myself wondering (As Jim clearly has) about the rather chunky Khanda hilt. What struck me is the fact that the pommel appears to be a 'ring' as does the 'slot' for the 'blade'. I am wondering if this was the hilt from a Khanda hilted Gargaz (or similar mace weapon) as that would explain the circular mounting holes to accomodate the thin steel shaft. I can try and find a picture of one if anyone wants? Regards Gene

18th July 2009, 02:49 PM	#6
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks fo the replies: I'd love to see pictures of anything with a similar hilt construction, both in terms of the round pommel and round bolster, and also the unusual attachment of the hand guard. That does appear to be red (and black) laquer or paint on there, but I'll know more when I get it. As for the blade, I'm keeping fingers crossed about its being wootz, but I'm not getting my hopes too up. Does anyone have examples of nagan-type blades that end with such a tip? Normally you see them tapering, rather than ending in the wide, almost spatulate way that khandas do. Also interesting is that the strap seems to be wiggly as well; never seen that either. Thanks for your continued interest and observations! --Radleigh

18th July 2009, 02:55 PM	#7
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Hi David our replies crossed: The thought had crossed my mind that the blade was originally a "normal" khanda, reworked in the nagan form. I guess my hope is that the curves in the blade seem to be reasonably well done (rather than the pointy types you see in for example later fillipino pieces). When I see the blade in person I'll know if there are ugly grind marks, whether it is sharp, etc. That will answer a lot of questions. --Radleigh