Strange Sumatran/Moro keris? kris? dagger? with a Dutch blade?

[Bill M]

One of the things I like about Moro kris is the incredible diversity of styles. Dramatically different pieces, extremely personal to whomever had them made, then later embellished the weapons as different owners made them more "personal."

BUT

This has GOT to be one of the most unique, one-of-a-kind I have ever seen.

The blade has been identified as a Dutch VOC Rotterdam. Sandwich welded in place.

Very well made and solid. Age patina indicates it has been together for a long time.

Overall length - 48 cm or 19"
Blade width - 2.4 cm or 7/8"
blade length - 35 cm or 13 3/4"
Thickness of blade at handle - 1.4 cm or 1/2"
Handle length - 11 cm or 4 3/8"
Width at ganga - 7 cm or 2 1/2"

Your opinion?

[Bill M]

Ok, here is where it gets unusual!

Note size next to a more "common Moro kris"

[VVV]

Congratulations Bill on a rare find!
That's a really strange combo of 3 different sword styles.
Which of course makes it very interesting.
Based on the sorsoran, handle and sheath I would guess Peninsular Malaysia?

Michael

[Lew]

Bill

That is an interesting kris. Seems like the base comes from a broken Sumatran panjang keris with this top part of the blade being that of a European blade?


Lew

[kino]

I saw this Kris last month. It's a beauty. The seller thought it was Moro. It looked Indo/Malaysian to me. Congrats on a good acquisition.

[Newsteel]

Congratulation for having one very rare keris. Very strong peninsular Malaysia influence. As VVV mentioned, it has a close resemblance of Sumatran keris panjang/anak alang or bahari at the sosoran and greneng (base) and no kembang kacang. Could it suggest a 'kapit' blade ??? fusing 2 pieces of blade metal??? Very interesting.

[Bill M]

Someone recently suggested this might have been made for a boy?

[VVV]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Someone recently suggested this might have been made for a boy?

Why???

I am curious if there is any other reason than the size?
In this case the size shouldn't be relevant as it's made from a keris.

Michael

[Bill M]

I don't really think the kris was made for a boy, just offering a possibility.

The comment was basically about the size. Depends on whether you consider this essentially a Moro piece -- that would usually be larger, or Peninsular, that would normally be this size or even smaller.

I think that some of the diminutive Moro weapons were made smaller for youths.

FI here is a barong with an 11" blade (28cm). Probably made for a youth. Late 1800s, Sulu.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I don't really think the kris was made for a boy, just offering a possibility.

If you compare the grip area with that of the full-size Moro kris (pic in post #2), there's hardly any difference. Thus, I'd believe this piece was meant for an adult, too.

Regards,
Kai

[Bill M]

I may soon have an answer to the date on this piece. As you can see the first two digits are obscured by the sosoran that was welded to the blade. Since the VOC ended in 1800, the date is probably 1746, but if I am very lucky, it could be as old as 1646.

I have a friend who has access to a metallurgical x-ray. He is going to do full xrays on this piece and tell me the date. He is also going to xray the hilt. This will give us more clues as to how it was constructed.

Got to work this into his schedule, so I don't know how soon I can post pictures.

FWIW my friend says he can xray steel more easily than copper. He usually deals with Dong Song culture bronze pieces that can be 800 bc or earlier. These are more difficult to xray.

[Bill M]

Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age?

[Bill M]

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill M

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by David

Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

I did not know how to resurrect to the Keris Forum. So I posted it here and then started over in the Keris Forum.

There are quite a few informative comments in this original post. As I mentioned that I had originally posted in the Ethno Forum because there, at that time as the Keris Forum had not been yet conceived.

I am happy for me to redo into the Keris Forum, or resolve the redundancy while keeping the original post with the 40-something comments.

Please let me know how to do this or please I would be happy if you could do so.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

Sorry, I don't know how I managed to miss your posting back in 2010!

Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age?

Could you please try to post scans of the x-ray images? Would like to have a look at the digits as well as search for possible additional marks.

1646 would indeed be quite an early VOC blade and allow for enough time to disperse throughout the archipelago and eventually get recycled as part of this k(e)ris!

The Rotterdam mark won't help to corroborate age since its trade chamber participated in the VOC from the very beginning. It's role increased with time (this won't allow any reliable inferences though).

Regards,
Kai

[Bill M]

An Indonesian friend has commented,

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt,,,
Hybrid ,,, Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down after the came after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786 ,,,The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang ,

I don't understand most of the language and someone could interpret this?

[kai]

Hello Bill,

Originally Posted by an Indonesian friend

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt,,,
Hybrid ,,, Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down after the came after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786 ,,,The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang ,

Just some quick comments:

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt

Blade in keris anak alang and keris bahari style with keris sundang fittings (hilt/clamps).

Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down

There were Moro settlements/colonies in the Riau archipelago (East of Sumatra).
[sug = Tausug, etc.]

after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786

Historical reference: the VOC defeated Raja Haji at Teluk Ketapang in 1786.

The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang

Keris panjang, keris anak alang, and keris bahari share a common blade style which gets collectively called after the town Bangkinang (traditional production center on Sumatra).

Regards,
Kai

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Bill,


Just some quick comments:


Blade in keris anak alang and keris bahari style with keris sundang fittings (hilt/clamps).



There were Moro settlements/colonies in the Riau archipelago (East of Sumatra).
[sug = Tausug, etc.]



Historical reference: the VOC defeated Raja Haji at Teluk Ketapang in 1786.



Keris panjang, keris anak alang, and keris bahari share a common blade style which gets collectively called after the town Bangkinang (traditional production center on Sumatra).

Regards,
Kai

Kai, thank you very much with your explanations! Always a pleasure!