Curved Flyssa in St-Petersburg museum...Ariel, Jim, Ham...somebody please explain!!!

Emanuel · 19th December 2006, 04:21 AM

I just stumbled over this discussion on SFI: Lots of pictures... a link to a website with pictures from said museum...it shows a most surprising thing. A curved flyssa (isn't it?) among various weaponry. The pommel is sort of a mix/transition between the kabyle camel and the caucasus lobe. The captions are in Russian, so perhaps some of the members knowledgeable in this language can translate...
Dear Lord, it's like an ordynka...what is this, the missing link??

Emanuel

Emanuel · 19th December 2006, 05:06 AM

Damn! I'll be dreaming about this thing tonight.
Some of my rants:
- It's got the zoomorphic pommel but it's different from the camel/dog/eagle-style usually seen. It looks more like a lobed pommel as on shashka. It isn't as "cubic" as usual flyssa pommels. Then again, what is "usual" ? I have seen relatively few examples and never in hand...
- It's got what looks to be an octogonal handle...but could be hexagonal
- the haxa/octogonal drum between the handle and the blade is a bit weird, but looks all right
- It's got inlaid decoration, it looks like classical designs, as seen on the pic from Oriental Arms
- It's got the indentation into the spine of the blade, that are seen on flyssa

So to me that is a flyssa made by kabyles or according to kabyle designs, but...it's very very curved, and it doesn't have a deep belly...it's like a shamshir. The smaller knife-sized flyssa are sometimes curved, but not at this scale and not to this degree. Has anyone seen this before?
Other thoughts?

Emanuel · 19th December 2006, 05:23 AM

Could it have simply been modified? A regular long flyssa bent in a curve to the whim of a new owner? Would such deformation affect the integrity of the blade and its decorations?

katana · 19th December 2006, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Damn! I'll be dreaming about this thing tonight.

DOCTOR....quick....this man needs your help....

katana · 19th December 2006, 10:47 AM

Hi Emanuel,
the Flyssa is slightly unusual...IMHO....it fits the overall description of one. Nice sword either way. As to the curve being formed from an originally straight blade......as the sword is forged, the curve would have been formed early in the making of the sword. To form the curve on an already forged straight blade would be more trouble than its worth...I believe it would be easier to forge a new blade.

The one that caught my eye is the wavy edged Shamshir....I am wondering whether its wavy edge enhances its 'cutting abillity' when used with a 'slash' type blow.

ariel · 19th December 2006, 01:45 PM

The exhibition describes it as an "Uzbeki Shashka". Very strange. I am quite uncertain about the validity of IDs: there is a typical Qajar Revival sword with a very usual point, described as Zulfiqar

However, the ax is an Uzbeki Ay-Balta, the shamshir has a collar of turquoise on the throat of the scabbard ( you even can see a part of it in the picture showing the hilt of the "'shashka") and provenanced as the gift of the Emir of Bukhara to the Tsar, and the karud also has the same collar on the bolster.

Assuming the Uzbeki attribution is correct, we can go on a very, very long limb: is it possible that the blade is the ancestor of both Laz Bicagi (Black Sea Yataghan) and Flyssa?
I can see the proverbial fan turning my way..... Duck...

Emanuel · 19th December 2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Assuming the Uzbeki attribution is correct, we can go on a very, very long limb: is it possible that the blade is the ancestor of both Laz Bicagi (Black Sea Yataghan) and Flyssa?
I can see the proverbial fan turning my way..... Duck...

Phew, good thing you said it

Ariel. That's the little demon that got in my head when I saw this. The decorations are stylistically kabyle though, so at some point this sword was in Algeria (compare the second and last pics). That such decorations endured from uzbeks to be used by kabyles is a long limb indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

DOCTOR....quick....this man needs your help....

Heh, get me a couple of these beauties and I'll be instantly cured

Thanks for the comments,
Emanuel

19th December 2006, 04:21 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Curved Flyssa in St-Petersburg museum...Ariel, Jim, Ham...somebody please explain!!! I just stumbled over this discussion on SFI: Lots of pictures... a link to a website with pictures from said museum...it shows a most surprising thing. A curved flyssa (isn't it?) among various weaponry. The pommel is sort of a mix/transition between the kabyle camel and the caucasus lobe. The captions are in Russian, so perhaps some of the members knowledgeable in this language can translate... Dear Lord, it's like an ordynka...what is this, the missing link?? Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Manolo; 19th December 2006 at 04:14 PM.

19th December 2006, 05:06 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Damn! I'll be dreaming about this thing tonight. Some of my rants: - It's got the zoomorphic pommel but it's different from the camel/dog/eagle-style usually seen. It looks more like a lobed pommel as on shashka. It isn't as "cubic" as usual flyssa pommels. Then again, what is "usual" ? I have seen relatively few examples and never in hand... - It's got what looks to be an octogonal handle...but could be hexagonal - the haxa/octogonal drum between the handle and the blade is a bit weird, but looks all right - It's got inlaid decoration, it looks like classical designs, as seen on the pic from Oriental Arms - It's got the indentation into the spine of the blade, that are seen on flyssa So to me that is a flyssa made by kabyles or according to kabyle designs, but...it's very very curved, and it doesn't have a deep belly...it's like a shamshir. The smaller knife-sized flyssa are sometimes curved, but not at this scale and not to this degree. Has anyone seen this before? Other thoughts? Attached Images Last edited by Manolo; 19th December 2006 at 05:13 PM.

19th December 2006, 05:23 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Could it have simply been modified? A regular long flyssa bent in a curve to the whim of a new owner? Would such deformation affect the integrity of the blade and its decorations?

19th December 2006, 10:47 AM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Emanuel, the Flyssa is slightly unusual...IMHO....it fits the overall description of one. Nice sword either way. As to the curve being formed from an originally straight blade......as the sword is forged, the curve would have been formed early in the making of the sword. To form the curve on an already forged straight blade would be more trouble than its worth...I believe it would be easier to forge a new blade. The one that caught my eye is the wavy edged Shamshir....I am wondering whether its wavy edge enhances its 'cutting abillity' when used with a 'slash' type blow.

19th December 2006, 01:45 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The exhibition describes it as an "Uzbeki Shashka". Very strange. I am quite uncertain about the validity of IDs: there is a typical Qajar Revival sword with a very usual point, described as Zulfiqar However, the ax is an Uzbeki Ay-Balta, the shamshir has a collar of turquoise on the throat of the scabbard ( you even can see a part of it in the picture showing the hilt of the "'shashka") and provenanced as the gift of the Emir of Bukhara to the Tsar, and the karud also has the same collar on the bolster. Assuming the Uzbeki attribution is correct, we can go on a very, very long limb: is it possible that the blade is the ancestor of both Laz Bicagi (Black Sea Yataghan) and Flyssa? I can see the proverbial fan turning my way..... Duck...