A Venetian Schiavona for comment

CSinTX · 23rd March 2015, 06:13 AM

I was the high bidder on this schiavona with rapier like cross guard and blade. I believe it to be correct and original. Are there other known examples? Age? I cant seem to locate any pictures of anything that resembles it. Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.a...num=13&lang=En

The item description- "A rare transitional Venetian form of swepthilt rapier. The fine brass “cat’s head” pommel elaborately embellished with an angel’s head, with corded wooden grip. The hilt wrought with traditional complex profiled and line-engraved steel branches and integral thumbring, and introducing a long, narrow guard with beaded terminals and long, narrow, double-edged, bifullered blade of flattened diamond section with continuously tapering tip. First half of the 17th century. Guard slightly loose, age toning. Overall length 103.5 cm."

Once I have the item in hand, Ill post better pictures.

Thanks,
Casey

DaveA · 24th March 2015, 08:36 AM

I love the schiavona. It represents a moment in time when things changed. Thanks for sharing this example.

ulfberth · 26th March 2015, 11:51 AM

Hello Casey,

Congratulations with a very rare schiavona, all parts look original to me and belong together.
I think the the description as made by the auction house is spot on, this is indeed a transitional or a variant of the schiavona that is between a sword and a rapier from the first part of the 17th century.
Before that period more countries had swords from which the schiavona could have evolved, some dussage or tessak swords or 16th century German type's of basket hilts could have been predecessors that lead to the schiavona.
The pommel with the cherub head is also very nice and most probably Venetian, you don't' find this kind of pommel very often.
The straight crossguard on this is even more rare and it is indeed a schiavona and no dussage, I have included some pictures of, a Venetian cherub's head, and a similar schiavona with a straight sword blade.

Kind regards
Ulfberth

Robert · 26th March 2015, 09:34 PM

This thread is being closed because the original sword is possibly in the process of being sold and will remain closed until further notice.

Robert

Robert · 8th April 2015, 04:51 AM

It looks as though things have been straightened out so the thread is now open again for discussion.

Best,
Robert

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2015, 12:12 AM

The schiavona is a fascinating sword and this example seems, as Ulfberth notes, quite well described by the auction folks.
It does seem that this simpler guard pattern is 17th century as later the guard was becoming more complex with addition of the trellis work (gitterkorb). I found a similar guard pattern in a drawing in Wagner (1967) but it was in a grouping without detail. Another article in an article which though rudimentary did show another drawing of one with similar bars on guard as Venice, early 17th c. ("In Search of the Schiavona", Karel Sutt, Knives 2000, 1999, pp52-56).
The brass katzenkopf (cats head) pommel is also indicative of earlier date I believe.
What is intriguing is the use of the cherubim head, an element often seen in Baroque art and perhaps with the symbolism reflecting 'justice'. In many cases the cherubs were seen allegorically guarding the gates of Eden, along with the flaming sword. While the sword was protective and vengeful, the cherub represented hope and mercy. The cherub head is seen in this sense on an 18th century German heading sword with scales of justice.

I think the 'transitional' view here is perhaps attuned to the straight rapier type quillons which are quite contrary to other schiavona hilts, in which the quillons are essentially wrapped inward in the S type configuration or in some versions the hilt is assymetrical with one quillon extended.

The use of cherub head on the trilobite pommel along with these straight rapier quillons in my thinking might extend this sword further to mid century 17th, but in such transitional cases the variation could well be regional or otherwise explained.

23rd March 2015, 06:13 AM	#1
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	A Venetian Schiavona for comment I was the high bidder on this schiavona with rapier like cross guard and blade. I believe it to be correct and original. Are there other known examples? Age? I cant seem to locate any pictures of anything that resembles it. Any and all thoughts are appreciated. http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.a...num=13&lang=En The item description- "A rare transitional Venetian form of swepthilt rapier. The fine brass “cat’s head” pommel elaborately embellished with an angel’s head, with corded wooden grip. The hilt wrought with traditional complex profiled and line-engraved steel branches and integral thumbring, and introducing a long, narrow guard with beaded terminals and long, narrow, double-edged, bifullered blade of flattened diamond section with continuously tapering tip. First half of the 17th century. Guard slightly loose, age toning. Overall length 103.5 cm." Once I have the item in hand, Ill post better pictures. Thanks, Casey Attached Images Last edited by dafunky1; 23rd March 2015 at 02:31 PM.

24th March 2015, 08:36 AM	#2
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Simply gorgeous I love the schiavona. It represents a moment in time when things changed. Thanks for sharing this example.

26th March 2015, 11:51 AM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hello Casey, Congratulations with a very rare schiavona, all parts look original to me and belong together. I think the the description as made by the auction house is spot on, this is indeed a transitional or a variant of the schiavona that is between a sword and a rapier from the first part of the 17th century. Before that period more countries had swords from which the schiavona could have evolved, some dussage or tessak swords or 16th century German type's of basket hilts could have been predecessors that lead to the schiavona. The pommel with the cherub head is also very nice and most probably Venetian, you don't' find this kind of pommel very often. The straight crossguard on this is even more rare and it is indeed a schiavona and no dussage, I have included some pictures of, a Venetian cherub's head, and a similar schiavona with a straight sword blade. Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

26th March 2015, 09:34 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	This thread is being closed because the original sword is possibly in the process of being sold and will remain closed until further notice. Robert

8th April 2015, 04:51 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	It looks as though things have been straightened out so the thread is now open again for discussion. Best, Robert

9th April 2015, 12:12 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	The schiavona is a fascinating sword and this example seems, as Ulfberth notes, quite well described by the auction folks. It does seem that this simpler guard pattern is 17th century as later the guard was becoming more complex with addition of the trellis work (gitterkorb). I found a similar guard pattern in a drawing in Wagner (1967) but it was in a grouping without detail. Another article in an article which though rudimentary did show another drawing of one with similar bars on guard as Venice, early 17th c. ("In Search of the Schiavona", Karel Sutt, Knives 2000, 1999, pp52-56). The brass katzenkopf (cats head) pommel is also indicative of earlier date I believe. What is intriguing is the use of the cherubim head, an element often seen in Baroque art and perhaps with the symbolism reflecting 'justice'. In many cases the cherubs were seen allegorically guarding the gates of Eden, along with the flaming sword. While the sword was protective and vengeful, the cherub represented hope and mercy. The cherub head is seen in this sense on an 18th century German heading sword with scales of justice. I think the 'transitional' view here is perhaps attuned to the straight rapier type quillons which are quite contrary to other schiavona hilts, in which the quillons are essentially wrapped inward in the S type configuration or in some versions the hilt is assymetrical with one quillon extended. The use of cherub head on the trilobite pommel along with these straight rapier quillons in my thinking might extend this sword further to mid century 17th, but in such transitional cases the variation could well be regional or otherwise explained.