Another cup hilt rapier for id

[Cerjak]

A second cup hilt .
Marks not decipherable
O.L. 111 cm ; blade L. 92 cm; blade width at hilt 3.8 cm
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak

[mariusgmioc]

I am not very knowledgeable on this subject but to me it looks like you have a 17th century Spanish rapier, military grade (since the blade is wider and stronger). The blade was probably a shortened a little.

Beautiful piece.

Can you post better pictures of the inscription on the blade?

[fernando]

Some sources pretend that military versions have their knuckle guards secured to the pommel, but ...



.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I am not very knowledgeable on this subject but to me it looks like you have a 17th century Spanish rapier, military grade (since the blade is wider and stronger). The blade was probably a shortened a little.

Beautiful piece.

Can you post better pictures of the inscription on the blade?

I will post extra pictures later ASAP .
"The blade was probably a shortened a little." I don't think and also there is no sign who could confirm this possibility .
What make you think that it could be the case ?
best
CERJAK

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

I will post extra pictures later ASAP .
"The blade was probably a shortened a little." I don't think and also there is no sign who could confirm this possibility .
What make you think that it could be the case ?
best
CERJAK

I think the average blade length of this type of rapiers normally exceeded 100 cm (sometimes by as much as 30 cm, but probably most of them were in range of 105-115 cm). So 92 cm is rather short for a Rapier.

But as I said before, I am definitely not very knowledgeable on the subject.

[Jim McDougall]

Away from references at the moment, but these wider blades (actually similar to schiavona blades with this central fuller) were military associated as 'arming' swords and of latter 17th c. It seems these followed traditional cuphilt fashion for a time, but as Fernando notes, the knuckleguard became screwed to the pommel later as in the 'bilbo' type swords.

It seems that the thumbguard or ring on this reflects that military feature which was often present on military swords of Continental Europe in these times.

Perhaps "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" might have something on these forms.

I have often wondered if the German smiths who relocated to Spain might have added these continental features to these kinds of swords. It seems that several German makers were known there but there may have been others outside the parameters of recorded smiths.

The 'ship' marking seems familiar, need to check Bezdek, Kinman, etc
I know it is not Spanish, but I believe German.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Away from references at the moment, but these wider blades (actually similar to schiavona blades with this central fuller) were military associated as 'arming' swords and of latter 17th c. It seems these followed traditional cuphilt fashion for a time, but as Fernando notes, the knuckleguard became screwed to the pommel later as in the 'bilbo' type swords.

It seems that the thumbguard or ring on this reflects that military feature which was often present on military swords of Continental Europe in these times.

Perhaps "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" might have something on these forms.

I have often wondered if the German smiths who relocated to Spain might have added these continental features to these kinds of swords. It seems that several German makers were known there but there may have been others outside the parameters of recorded smiths.

The 'ship' marking seems familiar, need to check Bezdek, Kinman, etc
I know it is not Spanish, but I believe German.

Hi Jim

I have seen nothing on "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America"
also I have try to decipher the the blade marks and it seems that it could be soligen.
Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I think the average blade length of this type of rapiers normally exceeded 100 cm (sometimes by as much as 30 cm, but probably most of them were in range of 105-115 cm). So 92 cm is rather short for a Rapier.
But as I said before, I am definitely not very knowledgeable on the subject.

I would give it as a fact that one should hesitate in determining the blade length of these swords... that not necessarily rapiers; at least in practical terms, once those beat whatever written in books.
The six examples in my little collection vary from 69 to 98 cm.(69-80-82-83-86-98).
... And the twelve units of a collection catalogued by someone from whom i have acquired a couple of mine, vary from 81 to 134 cm. (81-83-88-89-89-93-98-100-103-104-124-132). To be taken into account that the two largest ones are not to be considered as 'normal'; the so called 'off the mark', prohibited by the period authorities ... and very rare to find out there.
We may assume that, when comes to practice, rather than following a standard length, blades often followed owners conveniences, when they didn't have an average stature: short for a rather short owner, large for a rather tall one. Whether those for the shorties are commissioned to their size or shortened after acquisition, is another issue.
And then, i would guess, come the ones that are shortened for different reasons, like having been broken by accident.
I hope not to be taken too seriously, as i am no expert either .

PS

And i would like to further point out that, the one i have with the widest blade, is the shortest one.


-

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by fernando

I would give it as a fact that one should hesitate in determining the blade length of these swords... that not necessarily rapiers; at least in practical terms, once those beat whatever written in books.
The six examples in my little collection vary from 69 to 98 cm.(69-80-82-83-86-98).
... And the twelve units of a collection catalogued by someone from whom i have acquired a couple of mine, vary from 81 to 134 cm. (81-83-88-89-89-93-98-100-103-104-124-132). To be taken into account that the two largest ones are not to be considered as 'normal'; the so called 'off the mark', prohibited by the period authorities ... and very rare to find out there.
We may assume that, when comes to practice, rather than following a standard length, blades often followed owners conveniences, when they didn't have an average stature: short for a rather short owner, large for a rather tall one. Whether those for the shorties are commissioned to their size or shortened after acquisition, is another issue.
And then, i would guess, come the ones that are shortened for different reasons, like having been broken by accident.
I hope not to be taken too seriously, as i am no expert either .

PS

And i would like to further point out that, the one i have with the widest blade, is the shortest one.


-

Very interesting information! Thank you very much!

In the view of your information, I think I was wrong assuming it was shortened. And indeed, looking at its overall size and shape, it appears to be well proportioned with a beautifully shaped tip, probably original.

Also it seems logical that the broader the blade the shorter it should be as otherwise would become very difficult to handle because of its weight.