Saif for comment

[Tatyana Dianova]

I've got recently an Arabian Saif. Maybe somebody knows its more exact origin or age? Any comments are welcome!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Unfortunately I can't help you - but I love your pictures .
Many years ago I had one with an ivory hilt with gold placater, but I sold it, as I collect Indian weapons.
Jens

[ariel]

Isn't it a Mazar-i-Sharif stamp?

[A.alnakkas]

Pretty saif! These are generally attributed to Zanzibar and is made for the Arab market or something like that. Prolly 19th century.

I like the blade alot! ;-)

[eric45]

Very nice, i like it!

[Jim McDougall]

Extremely attractive sabre Tatyana! and it appears to me to be of the type of hilt associated with Hadhramaut/Yemen. It does resemble many of the Zanzibari type hilts mentioned in Buttin (1933) in some degree, but those usually had a loop or ring extending from the crossguard, sometimes with pitones. This distinct hilt shape is described by Elgood as Hadhramati and the 18th-19th century were often elaborately covered in chased silver and often had chain links from pommel to guard.

This seems more modern and presented in traditional form, is the grip ebony or horn?

Jens, coincidentally many of these type sabres were produced in Hyderabad for the Arabian marketin the 18th -19th c., particularly the mercenary forces from Hadhramaut.

[kahnjar1]

This may help Jim. Pic of the Zanzibari Saif with the "ringed" guard herewith.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

I've got recently an Arabian Saif. Maybe somebody knows its more exact origin or age? Any comments are welcome!

Salaams Tatyana Dianova ~ Jim of course is spot on and I dived for my copy of Buttin on this subject.. It is well covered in his sketches. The stamp appears to be Omani..(rare as I have not seen a stamp before like this). Probably Zanzibar. I would say possibly military mid to late 19th C.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Good evening,
I hope I'm not upsetting anybody if I say that the well formed ricasso and the equally well formed circular end to the fuller on what seems to be quite a hefty blade don't strike me as very Arab. Like Ariel I could quite believe it to be an Afghan blade. However my main point is to link the mark, which Ariel thinks is Mazar i Sharif and Ibrahim Omani, to those on the mysterious daggers in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...2&page=2&pp=30. It would seem this type of mark was really in quite widespread use.
Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Good evening,
I hope I'm not upsetting anybody if I say that the well formed ricasso and the equally well formed circular end to the fuller on what seems to be quite a hefty blade don't strike me as very Arab. Like Ariel I could quite believe it to be an Afghan blade. However my main point is to link the mark, which Ariel thinks is Mazar al Sharif and Ibrahim Omani, to those on the mysterious daggers in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...2&page=2&pp=30. It would seem this type of mark was really in quite widespread use.
Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard G ~ Its quite different ~ The marks at your reference are various but the closest is a straight forward X in a rectangle. The Mark shown on the subject here appears to represent crossed swords over a dagger arrangement >I<
I rather think the blade to be European.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AJ1356]

I was trying to stay away from the subject and the whole worng info about mazar e sharif thing but it seems like that is not happening.
First, there never was a Mazar e Sharif arsenal, I explained this b4 but for some odd reason it keep popping up again and again. It is a misconception that just causes confusion for people.
On this blade itself, I'd lean towards an European blade as Ibrahim is thinking.

[Tatyana Dianova]

I do not believe the blade is European, because the fullers are very uneven and there are many small smithing "errors" where the layers (pieces) of metal were forged together - the blade was definitely hand forged.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Tatyana Dianova ~ Jim of course is spot on and I dived for my copy of Buttin on this subject.. It is well covered in his sketches. The stamp appears to be Omani..(rare as I have not seen a stamp before like this). Probably Zanzibar. I would say possibly military mid to late 19th C.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I am curious why you think this stamp is Omani, if as you say, you have not seen this before.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Stu for posting the 'Zanzibari' form hilt, which clearly shows the distinct similarities in the channels profiling the grips which in this case seem to be horn. Interesting that the peaked decorated ferrule is very much the same as well.
The deep stamped mark at the ricasso as shown resembles these kinds of bold stamps apparantly occurring in blades which are typically regarded as from regions in Rajasthan. The effect of this stamp is mindful of those attributed to represent the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif, but is not the same.
As has been importantly noted, these MiS stamps are actually regime stamps from Abdur Rahman Khan 1880-1903 in Afghanistan, and not for a particular arsenal as AJ well noted in previous discussions.

I think the most important thing to recognize about this sabre is that it is strongly representative of the Red Sea trade, and the connections between Arabia and India, as well as East Africa. While these style hilts are known to have been popular in the Yemen in Arabia, as well as in Zanzibar with the Omani trade and Sultanate there....they were also produced in Hyderabad in India. There were profound connections between Baluchistan and Oman and I think that the rhino horn seen in examples of Central Asian weapons, including shashka type sabres with similar type marks alongside the government (MiS) stamp of Afghanistan, suggests the trade of these materials. It would seem possible that Omani craftsmen may have adopted these kinds of stamps much as they did with a number of Solingen marks in thier locally produced blades.

The prominant ricasso block is typically indicative of a European blade, but as noted, despite the European features, lacks the quality of typical European blades. In the Anglo-Afghan type sabres of c.1890s we have often discussed, these heavy , deeply channeled blades I have always thought of as European, it would seem these may well have been produced in Rajasthan in European style.

The complexity of this history in these regions is one of the reasons sabres such as this one are powerfully exciting as well as extremely attractive.

[spiral]

Lovely Saif Tatiana!

The so called Mazir i Sharif stamp is actualy an Afghan goverment property marking. Nothing to do with the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif or an armoury there.

It was often stamped at Kabul arsenal on both localy made pieces & on imported swords & bayonets.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by spiral

Lovely Saif Tatiana!

The so called Mazir i Sharif stamp is actualy an Afghan goverment property marking. Nothing to do with the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif or an armoury there.

It was often stamped at Kabul arsenal on both localy made pieces & on imported swords & bayonets.

spiral

Actually the stamp is the regime stamp used during the rule of Emir Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1880-1901) and probably after by his son. It actually represents the Shrine of Hazrat Ali, the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif (Mazir i Sharif = Noble Shrine) and was used on coinage as well as seen on these stamped weapons.
It seems that these kinds of 'royal property' stamps are often regarded as 'arsenal' stamps in a number of cases with Indian arms as well, when a specific location was not necessarily indicated.
This was explained by AJ last year in the discussion linked, and in his post in this thread. Actually his post was what reminded me as I wrote my last post.

As also noted, the marking on Tatyana's sa'if is of a type used and diffused somewhat widely through the trade spheres mentioned and do not appear to be connected to the Afghan 'royal property' markings.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Stu for posting the 'Zanzibari' form hilt, which clearly shows the distinct similarities in the channels profiling the grips which in this case seem to be horn. Interesting that the peaked decorated ferrule is very much the same as well.
The deep stamped mark at the ricasso as shown resembles these kinds of bold stamps apparantly occurring in blades which are typically regarded as from regions in Rajasthan. The effect of this stamp is mindful of those attributed to represent the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif, but is not the same.
As has been importantly noted, these MiS stamps are actually regime stamps from Abdur Rahman Khan 1880-1903 in Afghanistan, and not for a particular arsenal as AJ well noted in previous discussions.

I think the most important thing to recognize about this sabre is that it is strongly representative of the Red Sea trade, and the connections between Arabia and India, as well as East Africa. While these style hilts are known to have been popular in the Yemen in Arabia, as well as in Zanzibar with the Omani trade and Sultanate there....they were also produced in Hyderabad in India. There were profound connections between Baluchistan and Oman and I think that the rhino horn seen in examples of Central Asian weapons, including shashka type sabres with similar type marks alongside the government (MiS) stamp of Afghanistan, suggests the trade of these materials. It would seem possible that Omani craftsmen may have adopted these kinds of stamps much as they did with a number of Solingen marks in thier locally produced blades.

The prominant ricasso block is typically indicative of a European blade, but as noted, despite the European features, lacks the quality of typical European blades. In the Anglo-Afghan type sabres of c.1890s we have often discussed, these heavy , deeply channeled blades I have always thought of as European, it would seem these may well have been produced in Rajasthan in European style.

The complexity of this history in these regions is one of the reasons sabres such as this one are powerfully exciting as well as extremely attractive.

Reference http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen

Salaams Jim ~ May I refer readers to the reference above which shows a classic Zanzibari sword etc etc and for some background...(plus posts from you)
It is a good thing that I never got to explore Mazir i Sherif looking for their old armoury ! The explanations by various members clears that one up entirely... Where the wheel comes slightly off the bike is in the distinction between Moroccan and Zanzibari Nimcha (incl. Algerian and North African variants) supposedly transmitted by merchants and pirates along the North African Coast (from Italian styles) though there is substantial evidence to suggest that the weapon is a Spanish derived species(Jinetta). Can it be both? Further what is the relationship between that and the Red Sea variant drawn by Buttin in many forms covering as I recall Saudia or Arabian variants as well as Yemeni and Zanzibari.. The recognition marks seem relevant on the pure Zanzibari already discussed at some length on forum but I am puzzled by the differing provenances ..

Is it in fact plausible that Hyderabad which is known to have had links to the Yemeni sword production could be the source of the Zanzibari Nimcha style and that no transmission is attributable to Morocco at all?

In reference to Solingen marks on Omani blades. I am uncertain what Solingen marks are used upon local Omani blades since I cannot recall seeing one. I have seen Solingen marks on blades imported from the Red Sea zone and rehilted recently in Muscat (originally European) but I wondered which marks you refer to...? ... there was a reference to a western visitor to Hormuz seeing the Andrea Ferrera marks in the early 19th C?... but of others I see none. (though I am checking furiously !!) I add that insofar as the passau wolf is concerned I am not at all sure who inscribed the blades in the case of wolf stamp copies...which they all appear to be... was it the sword maker or the owner?...so I have discounted the wolf mark.

It seems that the stamp on the sword at this thread appears to be a formal stamp rather than a roughly hewn squigle as in the case of the fake wolf marks however I cannot be certain unless more stamps can be found. It is on my list for my next museum visit.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Good afternoon,
Well, the discussion has certainly moved on. However it seems to me that of all the pictures we have seen, inluding Ibrahim's thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen) the blade here most resembles those in this thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14298), i.e Afghan. Obviously there are any number of reasons why an Afghan blade could appear in a Zanzibari type hilt, including, of course, some we would rather not contemplate.
Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

I've got recently an Arabian Saif. Maybe somebody knows its more exact origin or age? Any comments are welcome!

Salaams Tatyana Dianova~ Great thread...I hope we can discover the stamp detail which "I think" could be the Omani emblem in miniature possibly used on Omani military swords in the period following Said Sultans rule or shortly after..in the second half of the 19th C.

The debate swings about owing to variations in perspective and provenance of some of the different Nimcha styles. The Kastane for example is shrouded in guesswork owing to some extent in the revision of historical facts down the course of history there... Ibn Battuta for example noted the Moors and there details in the 14th C. in Sri Lanka and although they are recorded as having some position there as early as the 1st century they are generally accredited with being there from the 8th.

Sri Lanka. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Moors
The Portuguese are said to have introduced the Kastane ...and blades later sold into the region by the British East Indies Co are said to be common on Kastane. All that may be true ... Or contain flakes of truth but I dont swallow it altogether not least because the Moors were there far earlier and because the Zoomorphic hilt is pure Sri Lankan and looks like it walked(or flew) straight out of an ancient temple there ! The other nagging factor is that the Moors of Sri Lanka were "THE TRADERS" of that country with sea trade routes to Oman, Hadramaut, Bagdad and African regions... For those reasons I believe this debate contains many stones as yet unturned..and a few that have been covered up!! Therefor there is mileage yet regarding Kastane.

Regarding Morocco, Algeria, Zanzibar, Oman, Yemen, Saudia all users of Nimcha yet interestingly none of those countries even have the word Nim in their language whereas Baluchistan does... and Farsi... where it means half..The muddle as I see it is deciding where it originates and where it has morphed...What is not chrystal clear to me is who invented the style ~ the Italians or the Spanish ? Is it from the Storta or the Jinetta?

It is not beyond belief that the sword you show is made in Hyderabad but rescabbarded in Oman or Zanzibar. The hilt is peculiar and looks oddly like rosewood? There are many similar weapons in Yemen but your type does seem absolute for Zanzibar. The other way could be for as an as yet unidentified artesan putting blades and hilts together in Zanzibar itself..Or some kind of link with Hadramaut also provisioning blades...to a Zanzibar workshop.

If there is anything in a name (Nim) the possibility of transit from Persia Afghanistan and India cannot be ruled out. The other way out of line possibility is that Sri Lankan swordmakers were involved in sending their wares into the Zanzibar market. Naturally the Portuguese could have transported the essential style from the Mediterranean or the whole lot could have gone overland via Timbuktu from Morocco or down through Mecca by camel train and sea routes. In which case shall we ever know?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

While the arabic influence was undeniably strong in "indian" countries ( Mopla, N. India etc), I think that the Occam's rule would tell us that the simplest attribution of kastane might be to Europe rather than "Arabia". It has been recently brought to my attention on another forum that the famous Singhalese spear Patisthanaya is a dead copy of european Partisan.
Not everything came from Oman:-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

While the arabic influence was undeniably strong in "indian" countries ( Mopla, N. India etc), I think that the Occam's rule would tell us that the simplest attribution of kastane might be to Europe rather than "Arabia". It has been recently brought to my attention on another forum that the famous Singhalese spear Patisthanaya is a dead copy of european Partisan.
Not everything came from Oman:-)

Salaams Ariel, If there is a case built around another forums supposition that because a Singhalese spear is a European copy therefore Kastane are European I would like to see it put to forum.
Actually very little came from Oman.. I dont understand why you make that distinction...Other than the Khanjar and one old battle sword the Sayf Yamaani and the Mussandam axe ~ most, if not all, of the other Omani "weapons" bladed and gunpowder were imported.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.