Damascus Steel

PBishop · 7th February 2007, 04:43 AM

I'd like to see some discussion on this Wikipedia article about Damascus steel. Is the pattern welding that we call Damascus "wootz" steel different from or the same as the Damascus steel that received the reputation for slicing through stones and etc.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

and here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz

If pattern welding doesn't produce steel with the same characteristics as possessed by Medieval Arab weapons, how can we tell the difference in a particular piece, and assuming we know the difference how would it affect the piece's value?

ham · 7th February 2007, 06:48 AM

Remember that Wikipedia accepts contributions from anyone who has access to the internet-- while there is much excellent data contained in its database, errors do slip in-- and apparently most of them are in this first entry. It is not only general but contains serious inaccuracies.

The second article is far better, though both argue that wootz technology/ production simply disappeared c. 1700-- perhaps with a small popping sound. This is arbitrary and foolishly Eurocentric-- it is also wrong. Numerous dated examples of wootz blades, or shall we say crucible steel, exist which far outstrip the magical advent of the 18th century-- Elgood shows a very fine blade in his work on Arabian arms and armor which is dated in the first quarter of the 20th century, if memory serves.

You ask, Is the pattern welding that we call Damascus "wootz" steel different from or the same as the Damascus steel that received the reputation for slicing through stones and etc.?

The question itself implies some misunderstandings about what distinguishes wootz from pattern welding. I hope some forum member with better access to online data on these topics than myself will find a moment to attach a link or two below.

Ham

Jens Nordlunde · 7th February 2007, 01:22 PM

You should try to have a look at the Sticky Classic threads at the top, and while you are at it try also a search for Damascus steel. This should give you hours of happy reading

.

B.I · 8th February 2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Elgood shows a very fine blade in his work on Arabian arms and armor which is dated in the first quarter of the 20th century, if memory serves.

Ham

I agree that good wootz was being made well into the 19thC and very early 20thC.
Ham is correct in his memory, but I dont feel this was a good example to use. The sword listed by Elgood was wrongly dated, I feel. The blade was 19thC and the style of patterning, and inlaid cartouche was of a much earlier period. The sword was owned by a friend of mine, and the inscription compared to others of a very similar nature.

ham · 8th February 2007, 05:30 PM

Curiouser and curiouser... are there any good photos of that sword, BI?
The one in Elgood is hardly conclusive.

Ham

B.I · 8th February 2007, 05:53 PM

Ham,
I dont think so, as it was sold on some time ago. But will find out. Its quite an important point because if Robert was right (I am fairly sure he wasnt) then we can date this style of wootz to well into the 20thC.
But, have to assume he was wrong until proven otherwise (and not the other way round)

ham · 8th February 2007, 06:36 PM

Right. I have hunted up my copy of the book and studied the photo with a magnifier. Where do you feel Elgood is off in his attribution? Also, since you have seen the sword how was it mounted please?

The point is, there are a great many wootz blades which bear dates in the latter 1800s. In Iran a large number was produced in the reign of NasredDin Shah (1848-1896.)

Ham

RhysMichael · 7th February 2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBishop

If pattern welding doesn't produce steel with the same characteristics as possessed by Medieval Arab weapons, how can we tell the difference in a particular piece, and assuming we know the difference how would it affect the piece's value?

You can find both pattern welding and palud/wootz/crucible steel in antique middle eastern ( and other ) weapons. Some good articles on it right here on EEWRS. A search would get you many threads but a good place to start to learn the differences is here
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/patterns.html

Dr Freubach posts here and is one of the true experts on crucible steel she spoke in Timonium last year and I have a couple of articles she gave out there if it would help

There are some very fine pattern welded blades, many that I look at and covet ~lol~ . So I would not rule out either type as a good sword to have

Oh and guess what there are some people making crucible steel today

7th February 2007, 04:43 AM	#1
PBishop Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 11	Damascus Steel I'd like to see some discussion on this Wikipedia article about Damascus steel. Is the pattern welding that we call Damascus "wootz" steel different from or the same as the Damascus steel that received the reputation for slicing through stones and etc.? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz If pattern welding doesn't produce steel with the same characteristics as possessed by Medieval Arab weapons, how can we tell the difference in a particular piece, and assuming we know the difference how would it affect the piece's value?

7th February 2007, 06:48 AM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Remember that Wikipedia accepts contributions from anyone who has access to the internet-- while there is much excellent data contained in its database, errors do slip in-- and apparently most of them are in this first entry. It is not only general but contains serious inaccuracies. The second article is far better, though both argue that wootz technology/ production simply disappeared c. 1700-- perhaps with a small popping sound. This is arbitrary and foolishly Eurocentric-- it is also wrong. Numerous dated examples of wootz blades, or shall we say crucible steel, exist which far outstrip the magical advent of the 18th century-- Elgood shows a very fine blade in his work on Arabian arms and armor which is dated in the first quarter of the 20th century, if memory serves. You ask, Is the pattern welding that we call Damascus "wootz" steel different from or the same as the Damascus steel that received the reputation for slicing through stones and etc.? The question itself implies some misunderstandings about what distinguishes wootz from pattern welding. I hope some forum member with better access to online data on these topics than myself will find a moment to attach a link or two below. Ham Last edited by ham; 7th February 2007 at 07:24 AM.

7th February 2007, 01:22 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	You should try to have a look at the Sticky Classic threads at the top, and while you are at it try also a search for Damascus steel. This should give you hours of happy reading.

8th February 2007, 06:36 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Right. I have hunted up my copy of the book and studied the photo with a magnifier. Where do you feel Elgood is off in his attribution? Also, since you have seen the sword how was it mounted please? The point is, there are a great many wootz blades which bear dates in the latter 1800s. In Iran a large number was produced in the reign of NasredDin Shah (1848-1896.) Ham Last edited by ham; 8th February 2007 at 06:46 PM.

8th February 2007, 05:30 PM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Curiouser and curiouser... are there any good photos of that sword, BI? The one in Elgood is hardly conclusive. Ham

8th February 2007, 05:53 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Ham, I dont think so, as it was sold on some time ago. But will find out. Its quite an important point because if Robert was right (I am fairly sure he wasnt) then we can date this style of wootz to well into the 20thC. But, have to assume he was wrong until proven otherwise (and not the other way round)