how do we classify a weapon tourist,origin,time period ?

ward · 25th July 2015, 06:50 PM

I classify tourist pieces as items that are specifically made for display, not functional, and generally poor quality, or straight fakes.

Origin of a piece is often a problem because so many pieces have parts made in various locations. So I use the form of the weapon as a general rule. Even using terms like ottoman empire or Chinese are pretty vague. Both of the cultures expanded and contracted there holdings over time. They also sent artist, craftsman, and weapons out to other areas.

Age of a item is another issue. I have a family shotgun that was used in the American revolution, then years later changed over to percussion by a local black smith and used in the war of northern aggression, then the stock was falling apart so my grandfather carved a new one out of apple wood and used it during the depression. So how do I date it ? Except for the barrel that has been modified over the years and a few pieces of the furniture I would be hard pressed to call this piece 18th century or the original English origin.

What are your thoughts on these subjects?

Ian · 25th July 2015, 09:03 PM

Ward:

Great topic. Thanks for starting this off. I think it has more than Ethnographic interest so I'm going to send it over to the Miscellania Forum where our colleagues from the European and Keris Warang Kopi forums are likely to pick it up as well.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I classify tourist pieces as items that are specifically made for display, not functional, and generally poor quality, or straight fakes.

Origin of a piece is often a problem because so many pieces have parts made in various locations. So I use the form of the weapon as a general rule. Even using terms like ottoman empire or Chinese are pretty vague. Both of the cultures expanded and contracted there holdings over time. They also sent artist, craftsman, and weapons out to other areas.

Age of a item is another issue. I have a family shotgun that was used in the American revolution, then years later changed over to percussion by a local black smith and used in the war of northern aggression, then the stock was falling apart so my grandfather carved a new one out of apple wood and used it during the depression. So how do I date it ? Except for the barrel that has been modified over the years and a few pieces of the furniture I would be hard pressed to call this piece 18th century or the original English origin.

What are your thoughts on these subjects?

Ian · 25th July 2015, 09:29 PM

Ward:

The example of your family shotgun sounds very familiar. My family had an old Winchester Coach Gun that my great grandfather carried when he was delivering mail in rural Victoria (Australia) during the late 19th C. According to my family's legend about him, one day he came across the notorious Kelly Gang's camp while delivering mail on horseback. He didn't try to use the gun that day but just rode on by with a friendly wave. That gun went through many alterations over the years--new stock, replaced hammer and trigger assembly--and was lost when my cousin fell in the Murray River with it while hunting ducks in 2005.

I would say your gun is as "American" as they come--a great story and a great piece of folk history. It is an emblem

As far as terms such as "Ottoman Empire," "Chinese," "Islamic" or the ever popular "Indo-Persian," they do indeed lack specificity and are virtually meaningless when communicating among collectors and other parties serious about these weapons.

Ian

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2015, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Ward:

The example of your family shotgun sounds very familiar. My family had an old Winchester Coach Gun that my great grandfather carried when he was delivering mail in rural Victoria (Australia) during the late 19th C. According to my family's legend about him, one day he came across the notorious Kelly Gang's camp while delivering mail on horseback. He didn't try to use the gun that day but just rode on by with a friendly wave. That gun went through many alterations over the years--new stock, replaced hammer and trigger assembly--and was lost when my cousin fell in the Murray River with it while hunting ducks in 2005.

I would say your gun is as "American" as they come--a great story and a great piece of folk history. It is an emblem

As far as terms such as "Ottoman Empire," "Chinese," "Islamic" or the ever popular "Indo-Persian," they do indeed lack specificity and are virtually meaningless when communicating among collectors and other parties serious about these weapons.

Ian

Ian,
We crossed posts, and I just read this! Fantastic!!!
The story of Ward's shotgun and what incredible family history with yours and his!!! I truly hope others will add such fascinating entries.
As I mentioned, it would be terribly remiss to deny these weapons their colorful and exciting history in their descriptions for the sake of brevity.

ward · 25th July 2015, 10:45 PM

Yes family history is interesting. My daughter usually shutters when she hears a lot of it. My family was represented in the confederacy in Georgia, Tennessee, and Texas. One of the favorite stories I liked is one part of the family owned a sugar plantation on the Isle of good hope in Savannah, Georgia. The Yankees took over the house and demanded to be feed. They cooked the meal and added red ants to the sugar. The soldiers thinking they were poisoned burned the house down. This story was actually written in a journal that my aunt inherited.

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2015, 11:44 PM

Just a brief comment, and my opinion only, which means that I understand that it could be subject to much disagreement.

In respect of any item, and this does not mean only weaponry:-

1) identify culture of origin

2) identify society and sub-society of origin

3) identify origin in time

4) gain an understanding of the place of the item within the culture, society, sub-society at the time of origin of the specific item, and of its type.

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2015, 09:35 PM

This is an intriguing, and most pertinent topic Ward, and thank you for bringing it to these pages for discussion.

It seems often that descriptions even in catalogs of weapons, as well as captions and labels in museums are often vague, misplaced, or optimistically cavalier in their accuracy, or lack thereof. I cannot even comment on the often bizarre cases seen on one of the major online venues!

In my opinion, often a degree of qualification is almost always needed, and laconic captions are almost always subject to misinterpretation in some degree . Listings such as 'Ottoman sabre' are virtually useless as the obvious complexities of this empire, particularly the vast area and ethnicities and cultured within it render such classification completely inert.

It is of course the same with 'Chinese' or worse, 'Oriental'. The term Oriental has been construed to include wide cultural and ethnic scope, with even Central Asia and India, and others factored in.

Many arms have had long working lives, and through trade, capture, or other manners of diffusion, have transcended many generations. In these cases, of course it would be hard if not impossible, to classify within a single denominator.
In the case of the fascinating shotgun, I would specify the original character and period of the gun, noting its continued use and modifications into other later times and conflicts.

For example:
A mod 18th c flintlock shotgun of the American Revolution, later converted to Percussion.
That would do for the heading, but subsequent detail,
'Used later in the War of Northern Aggression (also known as the Civil War) and held within a family for use through the Great Depression.

Naturally I would say, ....it depends on the purpose intended for the description'.
For a label on a display: 'Shotgun used during American Revolution'.
The continued history of the weapon is not required.
However, if for a display of WNA weapons, 'A Confederate Shotgun of American Revolution vintage'.

Ethnographic weapons are a particular challenge, and many forms considered indigenous to certain cultures or regions often carry obvious external influences. This especially the case with hybrids, such as 'an India tulwar with British M1788 blade'

The lists go on, but in my opinion, it is best to maintain clarity even at the expense of brevity. If it takes a few more words to be accurate, DO IT!

25th July 2015, 06:50 PM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	how do we classify a weapon tourist,origin,time period ? I classify tourist pieces as items that are specifically made for display, not functional, and generally poor quality, or straight fakes. Origin of a piece is often a problem because so many pieces have parts made in various locations. So I use the form of the weapon as a general rule. Even using terms like ottoman empire or Chinese are pretty vague. Both of the cultures expanded and contracted there holdings over time. They also sent artist, craftsman, and weapons out to other areas. Age of a item is another issue. I have a family shotgun that was used in the American revolution, then years later changed over to percussion by a local black smith and used in the war of northern aggression, then the stock was falling apart so my grandfather carved a new one out of apple wood and used it during the depression. So how do I date it ? Except for the barrel that has been modified over the years and a few pieces of the furniture I would be hard pressed to call this piece 18th century or the original English origin. What are your thoughts on these subjects?

25th July 2015, 09:29 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Ward: The example of your family shotgun sounds very familiar. My family had an old Winchester Coach Gun that my great grandfather carried when he was delivering mail in rural Victoria (Australia) during the late 19th C. According to my family's legend about him, one day he came across the notorious Kelly Gang's camp while delivering mail on horseback. He didn't try to use the gun that day but just rode on by with a friendly wave. That gun went through many alterations over the years--new stock, replaced hammer and trigger assembly--and was lost when my cousin fell in the Murray River with it while hunting ducks in 2005. I would say your gun is as "American" as they come--a great story and a great piece of folk history. It is an emblem As far as terms such as "Ottoman Empire," "Chinese," "Islamic" or the ever popular "Indo-Persian," they do indeed lack specificity and are virtually meaningless when communicating among collectors and other parties serious about these weapons. Ian

25th July 2015, 10:45 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Yes family history is interesting. My daughter usually shutters when she hears a lot of it. My family was represented in the confederacy in Georgia, Tennessee, and Texas. One of the favorite stories I liked is one part of the family owned a sugar plantation on the Isle of good hope in Savannah, Georgia. The Yankees took over the house and demanded to be feed. They cooked the meal and added red ants to the sugar. The soldiers thinking they were poisoned burned the house down. This story was actually written in a journal that my aunt inherited.

25th July 2015, 11:44 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Just a brief comment, and my opinion only, which means that I understand that it could be subject to much disagreement. In respect of any item, and this does not mean only weaponry:- 1) identify culture of origin 2) identify society and sub-society of origin 3) identify origin in time 4) gain an understanding of the place of the item within the culture, society, sub-society at the time of origin of the specific item, and of its type.

25th July 2015, 09:35 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This is an intriguing, and most pertinent topic Ward, and thank you for bringing it to these pages for discussion. It seems often that descriptions even in catalogs of weapons, as well as captions and labels in museums are often vague, misplaced, or optimistically cavalier in their accuracy, or lack thereof. I cannot even comment on the often bizarre cases seen on one of the major online venues! In my opinion, often a degree of qualification is almost always needed, and laconic captions are almost always subject to misinterpretation in some degree . Listings such as 'Ottoman sabre' are virtually useless as the obvious complexities of this empire, particularly the vast area and ethnicities and cultured within it render such classification completely inert. It is of course the same with 'Chinese' or worse, 'Oriental'. The term Oriental has been construed to include wide cultural and ethnic scope, with even Central Asia and India, and others factored in. Many arms have had long working lives, and through trade, capture, or other manners of diffusion, have transcended many generations. In these cases, of course it would be hard if not impossible, to classify within a single denominator. In the case of the fascinating shotgun, I would specify the original character and period of the gun, noting its continued use and modifications into other later times and conflicts. For example: A mod 18th c flintlock shotgun of the American Revolution, later converted to Percussion. That would do for the heading, but subsequent detail, 'Used later in the War of Northern Aggression (also known as the Civil War) and held within a family for use through the Great Depression. Naturally I would say, ....it depends on the purpose intended for the description'. For a label on a display: 'Shotgun used during American Revolution'. The continued history of the weapon is not required. However, if for a display of WNA weapons, 'A Confederate Shotgun of American Revolution vintage'. Ethnographic weapons are a particular challenge, and many forms considered indigenous to certain cultures or regions often carry obvious external influences. This especially the case with hybrids, such as 'an India tulwar with British M1788 blade' The lists go on, but in my opinion, it is best to maintain clarity even at the expense of brevity. If it takes a few more words to be accurate, DO IT!