Yatagan questions

the_Nazgul · 3rd October 2006, 12:04 PM

Hi!

I recently got 2 yatagan swords as a present from my grandmother.
I already posted those pictures in the german Messerforum and got the hint to ask here for more information.
I added some pictures and some closeups of the inscriptions.
Maybe someone can help me to find out more about origin and age of those pieces.
Also the question came up if the blades could be made of wootz steel. Could that be possible?
Thanks in advance for any help.

greetings from Vienna,

Eugen aka the_Nazgul

Zifir · 3rd October 2006, 05:17 PM

I would definitely like to get such presents too, but no luck so far

Ya Muhammed kıl şefa'at ümmetindir Hasan

O Muhammed! Intercede on the day of Judgement on the behalf of Hasan,
who is one of your Ummah (community of believers).

Bıçak elde gerek dilde sübhan

"One should have sword(knife) in his hands and the Subhan (popular name for Sorat Al-Isra from Quran) in his tongue."

1216 Amal-i Mustafa Sahib Hasan Beşe

Year 1801/2 Swordmaker Mustafa Owner Hasan Beşe( beşe title suggests that he was a janissary)

Amal-i Ahmed Alemdar sahib İbrahim Ağa sene 1116

Sword maker Ahmed Alemdar (alemdar is another janissary title used by subordinate officers) Owner İbrahim Ağa Year 1704/5

I have difficulty in reading the second line, maybe a better picture helps.

Valjhun · 3rd October 2006, 06:26 PM

Hi Nazgul!

You have two verry nice pieces there. The first is the most typical example of Sarajevo manufacture from 19th century. The hilt seems to be bone. The mountings could be newer than the blade. I would guess around 1850-1880.

The second one is a real sweetie. Balkan provvenience also, but more difficult to say for exactly and The mountings seems contemporary. The hilt is walrus ivory.

Any chances you want to sell the pair?

spiral · 3rd October 2006, 06:47 PM

Both look like walrus ivory to me. Just the core pattern is more evident in the darker one & was from a larger tusk.

Spiral

Rick · 3rd October 2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Both look like walrus ivory to me. Just the core pattern is more evident in the darker one & was from a larger tusk.

Spiral

Agreed .
The stuff was also known as fish bone if I recall correctly.

Two very lovely Yataghans !

the_Nazgul · 3rd October 2006, 07:43 PM

Thanks for the translation Zifir!

Sorry Valjhun, but I won't sell them. I guess I won't be that lucky a second time to get such a present

My grandfather (who I've never met, he died long before my birth) purchased those two pieces in the 1950s, but my grandmother had no further informatin about them. But she knows about my gread interest for blades of all kinds

@ariel - ok, so no wootz steel in yatagans. Thanks for the info!

I attached two more pictures of the inscriptions on the larger one (I just noticed I only uploaded a photo of one of the two inscriptions so far)

erlikhan · 4th October 2006, 01:26 AM

Very nice pieces.Completely original and intact with no restorations. Zifir,your existence here is a great plus,as the only member who can read and translate Turkish written in Ottoman alphabet. I must learn that too,when I find some free time.I just need to ask about the date on the first one. It must be 1216 instead of 1116,not? I think age would matter a lot on the rarity and price of a piece so intact and complete,especially if it is an early date like 1704.

ariel · 3rd October 2006, 06:54 PM

Wish I had grandmothers like yours....
Very nice Yataghans. Traditionally, ivory hiltswith corals and repoussed scabbards were attributed to the Balkans.
As to wootz..... Rarely were Yataghans made of mechanical Damascus, and most of those that were , had "Turkish ribbon" as a pattern. I do not think I've ever seen a wootz Yataghan . Wootz was primarily an Iranian specialty and they were not fond of the Ottoman Turks or their national weapons.

3rd October 2006, 12:04 PM	#1
the_Nazgul Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2	Yatagan questions Hi! I recently got 2 yatagan swords as a present from my grandmother. I already posted those pictures in the german Messerforum and got the hint to ask here for more information. I added some pictures and some closeups of the inscriptions. Maybe someone can help me to find out more about origin and age of those pieces. Also the question came up if the blades could be made of wootz steel. Could that be possible? Thanks in advance for any help. greetings from Vienna, Eugen aka the_Nazgul Attached Images

3rd October 2006, 05:17 PM	#2
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I would definitely like to get such presents too, but no luck so far Ya Muhammed kıl şefa'at ümmetindir Hasan O Muhammed! Intercede on the day of Judgement on the behalf of Hasan, who is one of your Ummah (community of believers). Bıçak elde gerek dilde sübhan "One should have sword(knife) in his hands and the Subhan (popular name for Sorat Al-Isra from Quran) in his tongue." 1216 Amal-i Mustafa Sahib Hasan Beşe Year 1801/2 Swordmaker Mustafa Owner Hasan Beşe( beşe title suggests that he was a janissary) Amal-i Ahmed Alemdar sahib İbrahim Ağa sene 1116 Sword maker Ahmed Alemdar (alemdar is another janissary title used by subordinate officers) Owner İbrahim Ağa Year 1704/5 I have difficulty in reading the second line, maybe a better picture helps. Last edited by Zifir; 3rd October 2006 at 05:35 PM.

3rd October 2006, 07:43 PM	#6
the_Nazgul Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2	Thanks for the translation Zifir! Sorry Valjhun, but I won't sell them. I guess I won't be that lucky a second time to get such a present My grandfather (who I've never met, he died long before my birth) purchased those two pieces in the 1950s, but my grandmother had no further informatin about them. But she knows about my gread interest for blades of all kinds @ariel - ok, so no wootz steel in yatagans. Thanks for the info! I attached two more pictures of the inscriptions on the larger one (I just noticed I only uploaded a photo of one of the two inscriptions so far) Attached Images

3rd October 2006, 06:26 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Hi Nazgul! You have two verry nice pieces there. The first is the most typical example of Sarajevo manufacture from 19th century. The hilt seems to be bone. The mountings could be newer than the blade. I would guess around 1850-1880. The second one is a real sweetie. Balkan provvenience also, but more difficult to say for exactly and The mountings seems contemporary. The hilt is walrus ivory. Any chances you want to sell the pair?

3rd October 2006, 06:47 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Both look like walrus ivory to me. Just the core pattern is more evident in the darker one & was from a larger tusk. Spiral

4th October 2006, 01:26 AM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Very nice pieces.Completely original and intact with no restorations. Zifir,your existence here is a great plus,as the only member who can read and translate Turkish written in Ottoman alphabet. I must learn that too,when I find some free time.I just need to ask about the date on the first one. It must be 1216 instead of 1116,not? I think age would matter a lot on the rarity and price of a piece so intact and complete,especially if it is an early date like 1704.

3rd October 2006, 06:54 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wish I had grandmothers like yours.... Very nice Yataghans. Traditionally, ivory hiltswith corals and repoussed scabbards were attributed to the Balkans. As to wootz..... Rarely were Yataghans made of mechanical Damascus, and most of those that were , had "Turkish ribbon" as a pattern. I do not think I've ever seen a wootz Yataghan . Wootz was primarily an Iranian specialty and they were not fond of the Ottoman Turks or their national weapons.