Also Picked up in Tibet

[Jerseyman]

This is the second piece I bought from the street stall in Lhasa - a cross-piece from a sword.

It has puzzled me for a long time - it looks similar to a shamshir cross-piece, among others. Similar but not quite alike. It's also not a shape I recall seeing on weapons from any of the Himalayan regions - though my knowledge is by no means vast and I stand ready to be corrected.

I can't readily access my copy of Warriors of the Himalayas, so it's possible there's something I've missed in there.

What I find most fascinating is that it's possible to see how the item was constructed. I can't quite decide whether it is six pieces (two top, two bottom and two side) or four pieces (two folded to create both top and bottom and two side).

For a long while I thought the material was iron until I noticed a rubbed patch on the top flat revealing a yellow sheen which would seem to indicate brass. If you look closely you can see that patch has a gentle patination - my supposition is that when this item was found, or at least at some point in its journey, somebody cleaned a patch to work out whether the material itself had any intrinsic value.

I had assumed that the brown colour overall was patination, but then I realised that the remnants of the gilding obvious over the majority of the surface was on top of the background brown - so surely not patination (unless I'm being dim and missing something) Perhaps the surface is a deliberate design choice in the way that some european armour was russet and gilt? Is that even possible with brass? Any metallurgy heads out there?

It has both rising and descending langets - the rising ones are shorter than the descending ones. It's possible to see that they were hand shaped as they are all slightly uneven. The rising langets are decorated so presumably designed to be visible, not bound or wrapped.

The side surfaces are engraved with a narrow border filled with a double line of 'V's similar to a wave form. Within the border, and on both top and bottom flats, we see a dragon or fish scale pattern. The bottom/belly of each scale points down towards the blade.

How do I know top from bottom? If you look at each flat section, you'll see one where the scale engraving only moves in a third of the way from the finials towards the blade slot. My guess is that this is where the base of the grip sat on the cross-piece - after all, why engrave something that's not going to be seen? On the bottom flat the scale engraving covers the entire surface up to the blade slot.

If my conjecture is correct, that would make the base of the grip 675mm wide - slightly too wide for my hand, and I'm a big bloke. That leads me to speculate that the grip may have been waisted - as we see with Bhutanese weapons, or simply shaped to some degree. And almost certainly ovoid, or softened lenticular in cross-section.

Study the blade slot and I think it might give us some indication as to the style of the blade it once bore. The slot is shorter on one side of the langets than the other, and fractionally wider. I would surmise that it contained a single-edge blade - some form of back sword. Perhaps similar to the Bhutanese dagger blades we are so familiar with? Although perhaps I assume too much - after all the slot only tells us about the root of the tang. Whether the blade was straight or curved of course there is no way to tell.

It is possible to see that on the bottom plate, the edges of the blade slot have been rolled slightly, creating a tiny lip. Not a design feature I think, rather, evidence that the blade worked loose and fractional movement began to widen the slot, or perhaps an indication that the hilt was dismounted with little care and some force. Maybe when it was fully gilded somebody hoped it was gold or silver gilt? Interestingly, I've just noticed, the formed lip is only on the shorter/wider side of the slot - or what I would assume is the spine of the blade - could it be caused by the repeated impact of the blade striking something and bruising the connection point with the crosspiece?

When I purchased it, quite a lot of organic matter fell out of the interior, and it's possible to see in the photos that there is still some inside. Originally packed in, or made its way in when the item was discarded? I'm working on the assumption that the blade was not fixed in place with mastic or resin.

Dimensions

Width 112mm
Height 52mm
Depth - finial 4mm - centre 25mm
Top langets 19mm
Bottom langets 22mm
Top flat blade slot length 32mm
Bottom flat blade slot length 33mm
Top flat blade slot width (back) 7mm
Top flat blade slot width (edge) 6mm
Bottom flat blade slot width (back) 8mm
Bottom flat blade slot width (edge) 6mm
Plate thickness 2mm

The piece feels old to me - slightly battered but at some point someone lavished a lot of care on its construction. Original I think, not part of a copy - though of course I may be wrong.

And yes, I do realise that I've spun a great confection of conjecture from very little, much of which may be incorrect.

I would be very interested to hear opinions as to what style of sword this might have belonged to, what area or what era. Any thoughts and references gratefully received.

[Jerseyman]

I’ve finally had a chance to sit down with my copy of ‘Warriors of the Himalayas’ (Donald J LaRocca: Yale University Press 2006) and found one image that might cast some light on this crosspiece. It’s item 74, Curved Sword and Matching Scabbard Mounts.

The researcher draws the conclusion that the hilt might be Mongol married to a later Indian blade.

“Cross guards of the general type seen on this hilt were probably used in Tibet and China by the Mongols during the Yuan dynasty (1279-1368) and are similar to styles used by the Mongols and other peoples as far west as Iran from the fourteenth century onward.”

There is a footnote.

“Philip Tom has pointed out, however, that two swords with short cruciform guards and prominent langets were found in the tomb of the Ming emperor Wanli ( 1573-1620).”

It’s obvious that the iron-working style on this piece is Eastern Tibetan in style, which mine is clearly not.

There is also nothing in the book matching the dragon scale decoration on my piece.

Do we have any members with knowledge or images of Mongol or central asian arms?

Has anyone seen similar decorative styles on any far eastern weapons?

Does anyone have images of a dismounted shamshir hilt so that we can compare construction techniques?

Thanks.

[blue lander]

That hilt looks very similar to a picture a Mongolian antiques dealer once showed me on his phone.