Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

[Valjhun]

That's strange... Victorian? I'm not sure, it seem older...

Ebay item number 220304234813

Can somebody post pics for future evidence?

Any thoughts about that nice but strange piece?

[fearn]

Let's see if a picture gets posted below. Anyway, the two features I focused on are a) that wacky blade--I agree with the seller, it's probably a processional piece, and b) the pommel looks like a pineapple. Since, as I recall, the English went nuts for hothouse pineapples around 18th-19th century, I'd guess that it's English. It might be earlier than Victorian, but that non-functional blade makes me think it's 19th Century.

F

[Valjhun]

Yes, processional... but, what kind of processions?

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...a variation of the flamberge-style blade. One of the questions might be, what procession would have used a flamberge pattern. I know next to nothing about that style blade, like was it used by any particular order? Infantry vs cavalry, etc. Also, could it be a fraternal sword? Again, not my area. Still, an interesting piece...

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Yes, processional... but, what kind of processions?

Conga line ?

[fearn]

I'm with Rick on this one. Looking back, I'm not sure processional is quite the right word. Perhaps it's better to talk about it as a decorative piece than a functional piece.

F

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fearn

I'm with Rick on this one. Looking back, I'm not sure processional is quite the right word. Perhaps it's better to talk about it as a decorative piece than a functional piece.

F

That was my impression too. form not function. A nice vicky wall hanger. Very pretty, but 'flamboyant' to the point of eccentricity, and for the money you could get a real rapier.
I've often wondered if any of these 'flamboyant' or in this case I guess more 'serpentine' blades were actually owned by men who expected to use them in anger?
I'd be relieved if I was forced to fight a chap who then drew one of these unweildy things. You would truly have to be Cyrano to make one of these as effective as a straight blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Conga line ?

LOL!!!!JUDL!! Ya kill me Rick!!!!

[Rick]

The interesting thing about this blade is that it is actually bent back and forth (like a keris blade) during the forging process .
No stock removal here .

The blade really reminds me of the waking Naga form of Java* .
*see below .

It must have been very demanding work to make the waves even in size, keep it from twisting on the anvil, and to finally have it come out flat .

Kudos to the Smith .

[fearn]

Gee Rick,

Are you saying we have a keris-shaped object here? Perhaps it belongs in the Keris coffee shop

Or maybe it's just a case of keris envy.

Seriously, I agree with you on the work of the smith, which leads me to think that whoever commissioned it had some money to play with, and (potentially) a reason to do it. I can see Jim's point that perhaps it was supposed to be a flaming sword guarding some secret fraternity or other. However, Europe was crawling with secret fraternal organizations at the time, so I'm not sure how much help that is in figuring out its provenance. A big "FREEMASON SECRET WEAPON" stamp on the side would have been useful.

Another thing that strikes me as odd is that it appears to have an ambidextrous hilt (this is more obvious in the ebay posting. I'd expect to see a commissioned piece be right-handed (or, perhaps, left-handed). The symmetry of the piece is puzzling to me. See the pics below. Comments?

F

[Jim McDougall]

Rick and Fearn, I'm with you guys on this blade...pretty fantastic work!
I'm still convinced this is most likely a Freemason's symbolic sword,probably used by the Tyler who guards the door of the lodge. It seems I recall a number of instances over the years, where some very interesting old swords have found a place as one of these symbolic swords in lodges across the country. I remember one had one of the Spanish colonial blades we have discussed a number of times over the years with the motto "draw me not without reason, nor sheath me without honor'. In other cases, mostly old cavalry sabres or ornate dress swords served the purpose.

According to "The Doorway of Freemasonry" by William Harvey, Dundee, Scotland, 1921, the old Scottish term tile/tyle meant to cover,hide, keep secret, and the officer who guarded the door of the lodge was solemnly entrusted with this duty. He notes further, "..there was a time when the tylers sword was 'wavy' in shape, and he adds that it was made in allusion to the flaming sword placed at the east of the Garden of Eden". He emphasizes that the tylers sword and office mark the dividing line between the lodge and the world.

Another Freemason site, this one in the U.S. notes that the tylers sword should traditionally be with a 'wavy' blade, and illustrates one of the more common neoclassic fraternal type hilts with a less elaborate straight wavy blade, and describes the same Biblical association to the flaming sword.

I agree that 18th century Europe, in Great Britain and on the Continent, was wrought with occultism as described in discussions on talismanic blades, and secret societies of many forms, most prevalent being the Freemasons. Of these secret societies and fraternal groups, the Freemason's seem to have the most identifiable weapons in most cases, however the tylers sword seems to have been a privately adopted weapon, which clearly carried a certain degree of status in earlier times with this Society. Members were of course typically of both gentry and sometimes nobility being well to do, and it seems reasonable that an elaborate piece like this would be commissioned.

I think it would be fascinating to find other rather elaborate sword examples that were likely used by tylers in these lodges, such as the one I mentioned with dramatic skull and crossbones that looked much like an Indian pata.

I remain convinced as well that certain obscure symbolism is subtly imbued in the motif, decoration and style in a number of cases in swords used by military officers of these times.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Thanks Jim,

I didn't know about the tradition of the Tyler's sword, and also thanks to Google, I now see what you mean. This makes as much sense as anything, so I'll be happy to go with your ID.

F

[katana]

Hi,
interesting sword.....although this is likely a 'Victorian' copy...or as suggested has symbolic qualities, there is a possibility that this could be 'authentic' (as a type of Rapier)

In Stone's 'A Glossary of ....Arms and Armour....' there is an example of Rapier that has a wavy blade stated as French, late 16th C (page 525).

A few thoughts....

Rapier develpment was 'meteoric' during a relatively short period of time.... development and evolution and it's demise. New ideas and modification seem to come and go very quickly....perhaps the Serpentine blade was one of them.

It is known that the Rapier was taken by the Portugese to India, bearing in mind that there were established trade routes between India with SEA it is likely that serpentine blades such as the Kris would have been known within India and later, the Europeans that colonised the area.

I also think that the wavy bladed Rapier would have a better 'cut' in the thrust (as with the kris) and possibly with 'slashing' cuts as well. Parrying an opponent's blade might also be easier and allow more control as the 'offensive' straight blade is partially trapped in the undulations of the blade.

I would imagine that if a wavy blade had the same 'reach' as a straight bladed' version it would be heavier. (ie if the wavy blade was 'pulled' straight it would be longer and therefore weigh more) Suggesting that if a serpentine blade was mounted ...the hilt/pommel would be heavier to balance the blade. It is a shame that we do not know the 'balance point' of this particular sword. If ceremonial, it is likely that a 'standard weighted' hilt would be fitted to the 'overweight' blade making it 'tip heavy'....making it totally unusable for a 'Rapier duel'.

Looking at the pictures ....there is a possibility that there is a later (?) repair.
There seems to be a metal plate that looks to be 'younger' than the rest of the hilt.....This plate is held by at least two screws....also noticeable are the gaps between hilt and blade

Regards David

[Rick]

Could it be that we are looking at an Indonesian inspired rapier and not a wallhanger ?

Look at the form of the guard. notice that it is swept upward and outward on the same side as the gangya of a keris is .
I did not see any examples in Stone with this style of guard .



I may have to join Speculators Anonymous after this one ......

[Jim McDougall]

David, absolutely outstanding points, and well taken! It does make absolute sense that this might have something to do with the Portuguese in India, where serpentine blades with nagan symbolism were quite present. I had been wondering about those cross piercings, which are distinctly of Portuguese fashion and seen on late 16th century swords (of the type of rapier which became copied in Africa's Congo , as seen in Burton).

This rapier has been really puzzling, and while the Masonic possibility presented a rather intriguing and mysterious potential, I still hoped to find more true weapon vintage with it. With your true forensically astute eye, you have found what appears to be 'the smoking element'!! in the hilt. That repair I had not noticed.

Your observations on the combat potential of this weapon are well stated and thought out, and do offer compelling consideration that I also had not thought of.

Rick, your also well placed note on the swept upward asymmetric side of the hilt is very reminiscent of the keris, and adds to the potential for this piece having East Indies provenance as we are observing.

Returning to the Masonic perspective, the only element of this sword that remains curiously non-East Indies or Portuguese in India, is the pineapple pommel, which seems a distinctly 18th century European affectation, as Fearn has noted. I am not aware of the pineapple used as decorative motif on weapons of India, Indonesia or Portugal for that matter, and perhaps evidence of that feature might lend more to better securing possible provenance of this sword.

The game remains afoot gentlemen!!!
Excellent detection and discussion

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi All,
The plate held on by the screws/ bolts, pointed out by David, looks to me to have been added because the tang on the blade was probably too small or a different configuration to the shape already cut into the hilt. This would then mean of course that the blade and the hilt were not made for each other. The reason I mention this is because I once cut a slot in a knife guard I was making and made it somewhat oversized, the solution, cut a plate with the correct slot and attach to the guard, problem solved. Just a thought.
Regards,
Norman.

[Atlantia]

The Victorians really liked the more ornate styles and the better Vicky repros can be very elaborate. I had a cup-hilt with the finest blade you could imagine (well possibly thats an understatement) but it was long and slender with several dozen shaped piercings in a wide central fuller, fantastic quality, just late 19thC!
If anything, the blade on the rapier in question is a little 'rough'. I wondered originally if it was a colonial piece, but despite the obvious talent of the maker, the surface doesn't look (to me) like it was ever polished. I think it was always intended to look old.
And is it me or does the pommel look cast? Like its come off a decorative railing.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi,
interesting sword.....although this is likely a 'Victorian' copy...or as suggested has symbolic qualities, there is a possibility that this could be 'authentic' (as a type of Rapier)

In Stone's 'A Glossary of ....Arms and Armour....' there is an example of Rapier that has a wavy blade stated as French, late 16th C (page 525).

A few thoughts....

Rapier develpment was 'meteoric' during a relatively short period of time.... development and evolution and it's demise. New ideas and modification seem to come and go very quickly....perhaps the Serpentine blade was one of them.

It is known that the Rapier was taken by the Portugese to India, bearing in mind that there were established trade routes between India with SEA it is likely that serpentine blades such as the Kris would have been known within India and later, the Europeans that colonised the area.

I also think that the wavy bladed Rapier would have a better 'cut' in the thrust (as with the kris) and possibly with 'slashing' cuts as well. Parrying an opponent's blade might also easier and allow more control as the 'offensive' straight blade is partially trapped in the undulations of the blade.

I would imagine that if a wavy blade had the same 'reach' as a straight bladed' version it would be heavier. (ie if the wavy blade was 'pulled' straight it would be longer and therefore weigh more) Suggesting that if a serpentine blade was mounted ...the hilt/pommel would be heavier to balance the blade. It is a shame that we do not know the 'balance point' of this particular sword. If ceremonial, it is likely that a 'standard weighted' hilt would be fitted to the 'overweight' blade making it 'tip heavy'....making it totally unusable for a 'Rapier duel'.

Looking at the pictures ....there is a possibility that there is a later (?) repair.
There seems to be a metal plate that looks to be 'younger' than the rest of the hilt.....This plate is held by at least two screws....also noticeable are the gaps between hilt and blade

Regards David

Hi David,
Great observations mate!

The balance point is a great idea. It looks like its going to be just below what would normally be thought of as 'riight'.
I say this because the handle looks a little long and the pommel is rather large. This and the obviously heavy guard with all its 'extras' and the large knuckle bow probobly make this 'about' balanced. I would guess the balance point to be about 4inches down the blade. But the critial thing as you mention is weight. As you say there are many 'dead end' rapier designs, but often the heavier ones are longer. Even the serpentine/flamboyant bladed rapiers are still effective in their length. I just cant see that being the case with this one. Rapier fencing is speed, I'd worry that this one would just get you killed.
Are there any period documents about incorporating the flamboyant blade into rapier fencing?
I find myself thinking about a fairly close-in thrust and sliding the point of the blade onto the target while at the same time deflecting an incoming thrust by angling the guard end of the sword outward slightly so the incomming opponents sword tip goes past you. The flamboyant blade would cause a slowing and wobble to this common and critical move, possibly causing you to miss and your opponent to hit.
Which made me think would the sword be kept in a 'up down' position (blade profile upright) while performing the thrust?
But then the blade would flex side-to-side! LOL, I'm waffling now.



Regards
Gene

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Saw this at Glasgow's Kelvingrove Museum today, tagged as mid 16th Century Italian, straight blade.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. Please excuse the bad close-up, unsteady hand shooting through glass !!!

[Rick]

Thanks Norman .
Will all please consider the size of the blade Norman has shown; please tell me that it is lighter than the serpentine blade under discussion .

[katana]

Thanks Norman ,

Stylistically both pommels look almost the same .... still wondering whether they are just 'decorated' acorn pommels that do not represent anything specific.
Mid 16th C ...it would be nice to find other swords of the period, with the same pommel ...


The history of the pineapple is interesting though.....

"......Spaniards introduced the pineapple into the Philippines and may have taken it to Hawaii and Guam early in the 16th Century. The first sizeable plantation 5 acres (2 ha)—was established in Oahu in 1885. Portuguese traders are said to have taken seeds to India from the Moluccas in 1548, and they also introduced the pineapple to the east and west coasts of Africa. The plant was growing in China in 1594 and in South Africa about 1655. It reached Europe in 1650 and fruits were being produced in Holland in 1686 but trials in England were not success ful until 1712. Greenhouse culture flourished in England and France in the late 1700's. Captain Cook planted pineapples on the Society Islands, Friendly Islands and elsewhere in the South Pacific in 1777........"

Fearn.....apparently the 'pineapple' was coined by the English because it looked like a pine cone that grew in trees (actually technically a bush) like an apple. Bearing in mind alot of Europeans would not have seen one ...it would make sense that a 'pine cone' topped with apple leaves would become the accepted 'image'.

Regards David

.

[fearn]

Hi David,

Thanks for reminding me about the origin of the pineapple. Since we're on word origins, I'd also point out that the term pommel originated with pomme, which is, of course, an apple. I'm not sure whether older round pommels were meant to represent apples or pomegranates (latin for "seeded apple"), but that only points out that swordsmiths don't often make botanically accurate pommels, unless they have a reason.

That's the question here, though, is whether there's a reason for the design of this sword. As you indirectly pointed out, that reason can be tied up with the age of the blade.

In a 16th century pineapple pommel (if such a thing existed), the fruit would symbolize exoticism and the New World, and would probably be Spanish. If we assume that this is from the 18th or 19th Century, the pineapple might symbolize wealth, as in "I'm wealthy enough to finance a hothouse that lets me grow my own pineapples." In that case, the blade would be northern European. The pineapple also retains its air of tropical exoticism, but it's really a symbol of wealth.

We can look at some other pommels. For instance, an acorn pommel may simply be there as a skull crusher. Alternatively, if the acorn pommel is realistic, we might legitimately expect the piece to be a hunting sword. I'm not sure if there is a reason to have a pinecone on a sword, let alone a strawberry. When I thought about a raspberry, the image of Sir Framboise got me giggling, and I haven't pursued that line...

Personally, I still think it's supposed to be a pineapple. Unless Jim speaks up again and lets us know what type of fruit the freemasons think grows on the Tree of Knowledge that the flaming sword should guard... Then we might have something else to discuss.

Best,
F

[Gonzalo G]

According with German Dueñas Beraiz, an important scholar on spanish swords, one type of blade, very characteristic, but rarely identified with the spanish production, was the sword with a flammard blade. It was less known, because those weapons were not appreciated, and otherwise even censurated by the catolic church, as they were related with the devil and the serpent.

There are spanish swords with flammard blades in some museums, from Sahagun and Abraham de Vilina, probably a spanish-jew swordsmith, and another one form Juan Martínez.

I don´t belive they are masonic swords, but for fighting. Please see:

Dueñas Beraiz, Germán
"Introducción al estudio tipológico de las espadas españolas: siglos XVI-XVII"
Gladius, Vol. XXIV, 2004, pag. 217
Spain

Regards

Gonzalo

[katana]

Hi Gonzalo ,
thanks for the information....unfortunately I do not have access to the reference you provided, but I am in agreement with you, I think the majority of the older serpentine blades (not the victorian copies) were functional.
As has already been noted this particular sword has a nicely forged blade...and is likely properly hardened and tempered. The fact that is wasn't finely finished or 'polished' suggests to me, that it is even more probable that it was not a ceremonial / ritualistic blade.

Like Rick, I cannot find a similar guard shape and his 'jovial' suggestion of it imitating the Gangya of a Keris might not be as strange as it first appears ....certainly 'food for thought' or strange coincidence

Regards David

[fearn]

Gentlemen,

I really have to question whether it was functional. If you go back and look at the first picture posted, several things become apparent.

1. It's currently blunt

2. More importantly, the tip, because of the undulations, is not in line with the hilt or blade.

3. It's narrow,

4. It undulates widely,

5. It's thickest at the base, and thins towards the tip.

Now, basically a sword can chop, slice, or stab.

Can this one chop? Very badly. it's narrow, and it becomes smaller towards the tip. A good chopper would be wide and get wider towards the tip.

Can this one slice? A bit, but those waves are so big they'd probably decrease blade contact with the target (unlike, say, a saw). A good cutter would have a shape that brought a lot of edge into contact with the target.

Can it stab? Not well, because the tip's blunt, and even if the tip was sharp, it's not in a great line with the rest of the blade, Also, if you did stab someone, you'd have to push all those undulations (backed by air, not steel) into the wound. And pull them back out again.

Also, it's 51.5 inches in length, with a 41 inch blade, and it appears to be designed for single-handed use.

No, I can't agree that this was designed as a functional weapon. It's for display. Granted, it is sharp, but I'd hate to go into any fight with this thing.

F

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fearn

Gentlemen,

I really have to question whether it was functional. If you go back and look at the first picture posted, several things become apparent.

1. It's currently blunt

2. More importantly, the tip, because of the undulations, is not in line with the hilt or blade.

3. It's narrow,

4. It undulates widely,

5. It's thickest at the base, and thins towards the tip.

Now, basically a sword can chop, slice, or stab.

Can this one chop? Very badly. it's narrow, and it becomes smaller towards the tip. A good chopper would be wide and get wider towards the tip.

Can this one slice? A bit, but those waves are so big they'd probably decrease blade contact with the target (unlike, say, a saw). A good cutter would have a shape that brought a lot of edge into contact with the target.

Can it stab? Not well, because the tip's blunt, and even if the tip was sharp, it's not in a great line with the rest of the blade, Also, if you did stab someone, you'd have to push all those undulations (backed by air, not steel) into the wound. And pull them back out again.

Also, it's 51.5 inches in length, with a 41 inch blade, and it appears to be designed for single-handed use.

No, I can't agree that this was designed as a functional weapon. It's for display. Granted, it is sharp, but I'd hate to go into any fight with this thing.

F

Crossed posts Fearn! Just saw this outstanding summation concerning this blade, which seems to remain the key point of contention at this point. It does seem interesting that Spanish rapiers did seem to often be at 41" in length, again from many examples I have seen referenced. If I recall correctly rapiers of this length were at some time outlawed at this or any exceeding length, but cant recall details offhand. The note on its being blunt and unsharpened again goes to the visual rather than functional intent. The observation on the waved surface likely deflecting the cut seems logical in application, as the point of contact would in most cases be uneven. Again, it seems I've seen notes on this somewhere.

Good observations!

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Fantastic discussion guys!! and it is great to see everyone considering each others observations and offering constructive and well thought out rebuttal or reinforced ideas. What is really fun is the foray into the arcane esoterica of the Freemasons, botanical history of the pineapple and its place in myth and material culture, the dynamics of fencing and swordblade style and folklore of the sword, Theosophic perspective on arcane symbolism etc.... and all generated by this most unusual sword! Absolutely outstanding, and reading these well thought out posts and observations is the best.

In my repeated returns to looking at this sword, along with the developing discourse here, I keep returning to my original perspective on this being a Masonic tylers sword, despite all the merits of other observations offered suggesting India, Indonesia or those spheres of culture. As Rick has noted, the swept and outward design of the hilt does reflect the Indonesian style, but of course swept hilt rapier design, as well as asymmetrical hilts were a well known European feature.

There has long been considerable debate on the effectiveness of wavy, serrated and dentated blades, and I typically rely on the expertise on those well versed in martial arts dynamics for opinion on this subject. However, in most references I recall offhand, it does seem that these visually attractive blades were most often intended for parade, processional or symbolic purpose. It seems that by 'the book', these undulating blades carry more mass in similar length and 'more cutting surface', however it would seem to me that sometimes actual application of certain dynamics might not be so effective. I'd rather avoid the complexity of this discussion here, but its just my opinion, based mostly on various comments I have read, and the fact that these blades are seemingly rather uncommon that seems to affect my thoughts. The wavy blade of the keris will of course be brought in here, but I would submit that in my understanding, the 'luk' or waves seem to have more of an esoteric purpose than actual practical or combat purpose.

I think that the excellent 16th century Italian rapier posted by Norman is a telling example, and that Italian, Spanish and Portuguese weapons typically have profound similarities reinforces the characteristics of this piece. As Manuel has noted, the flammard was distinctly known in Spain, but further notes the negative connotation observed by the Catholic Church. With this being the case, the arcane and somewhat occult symbolism that is often applied to Masonic interpretation is somewhat recalled here.

As Norman has noted, the pommel seems cast, and I would suggest as well that the hilt itself seems cast, rather than chiselled as with most early rapier hilts I am familiar with. The addition of the metal adaptor to reinforce the blade suggests as noted that the blade and hilt were brought together as entirely separate components rather than made for each other. The fact that the blade, as noted by David, seems well forged and apparantly finely made may suggest it might have been from one of the earlier flammards of the form mentioned by Manuel.

It is well known that swords with either heirloom status or from various types of donorship in the deep brotherhood of Masonry, have often been placed in the honorary regalia of the Tyler. As I have mentioned, in later times, I believe even to this day, swords from early military status, as well as more modern replicas, may be in use in this capacity. I think at this point, I will remain with the idea that this may well be a well made, and refurbished blade mounted in neoclassic hilt for Masonic use.

All best regards,
Jim