Tricky Bugis Keris

VVV · 11th October 2006, 10:19 AM

I have discussed this Keris with some of you but still nobody is really sure of from where it is.
Hopefully the forum members here can shed some more light on its origin?
Please note that it has Ganja Iras.

Some references:

From Adni's site:
http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker..._sul_luk13.htm

Tammens De Kris 3 page 88 pict 71. A very resembling hilt is classified as West Kalimantan.

Hulu Keris page 83 pict 126. A slightly resembling hilt is classified as West Kalimantan (maybe influenced by Tammens?).

Frey's The Kris pict 20 a. The Sampir/Wrangka of a Peninsula Keris slightly resembles this Keris.

The blade resembles a bit the Keris Kapak Cina at The National Museum in KL
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

So where does it come from - West Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Sumatra or Malay Peninsula?
Or is it a "traveller" or a "dealer's mix"?

Michael

VVV · 13th October 2006, 09:41 AM

64 views and no clues?

Michael

Marcokeris · 13th October 2006, 01:27 PM

Nice old keris! But a puzzle to guess from where it comes.
Surely the selut is from Sumatra.
The hilt (nice the decoration) 90% would be from kalimantan (...but also, maybe, from Malaysia?) .

Sarong and silver pendok would be from Sulawesi .
About the blade i don't understand where it comes ( Sumatra?). Surely a good smith made nice dapur and nice pamor (tritik or untu walang)
....(sorry for my english)

VVV · 13th October 2006, 04:46 PM

Thanks Marcokeris for your comments (and votes below)!

On the selut it looks a bit like Palembang but it is more compressed. Like a mix of Bugis and Palembang maybe?

On the blade, with your vote, so far there are 4 - 1 in votes for Sumatra (vs Sulawesi).

On the sheath it's 3 - 1 - 1 in votes for Sulawesi (vs Sumatra and Malaysia).

The hilt is 4 - 1 for Kalimantan (vs Sulawesi).

Michael

PS Two of the other 3 "voters" are active members of this forum.
Please share your comments on why.

David · 13th October 2006, 05:40 PM

Hi Michael. I have been sitting back waiting for more knowledgable members than me to comment on this keris. I would think that Kai Wee or Shahrial would have a word or two on this one. I feel a bit out of my territory with keris outside the Jawa/Bali/Madura circle, but i still want and need to know so much more.

That said i would certainly venture to say this keris is a mixed bag. I am not sure it is always fair to say such combinations are "dealer mixes". Sometimes a blade legitimately moves from one region to another and gets re-dressed appropriately for that region. Sometimes a blade from somewher like Jawa will be imported into another area of Indonesia. Not saying this isn't a "dealer's mix", just can't tell.
On the blade i would vote for Sumatra and the sheath, Sulawesi, so i guess i am with the majority here. I don't know much about this hilt so i couldn't say.

A. G. Maisey · 15th October 2006, 03:57 AM

Yes, its a mix. How, when, where, why , we can only guess.

The blade is an older Madurese one.

Note the angle of the gandik, as if it wants to fall into the body of the keris.

Note the whispy style of the kembang kacang.

Look carefully at the greneng, especially the ron dha.Note that this blade is comparatively recent and has very little evidence of erosion. Ever seen a Javanese greneng or ron dha like this? Of course not!

Look at the distance from the luk nearest the point to point itself. One of the indicators of a Madurese keris is that it has a long point.

Look at the pamor:- relatively complex, involving both surface manipulation and a forge manipulation. The core will be found to be hard steel, where it has been heat treated. Where else will you find this type of material and workmanship?

This is a Madura blade.

In attempting to identify origin of a blade you should first disregard the dress in which it is found, and then look at each feature of the blade, do not just look at the overall blade. Pay close attention to the way in which the greneng, especially the ron dha , is cut. Look at the detail in the kembang kacang----how long is it? rate of taper? substantial? flimsy?

In the case of this blade, all these details only confirm the immediate impression:- you see a gandik like that, and it is almost certain that you are looking at an older Madura piece.

VVV · 15th October 2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Michael. I have been sitting back waiting for more knowledgable members than me to comment on this keris. I would think that Kai Wee or Shahrial would have a word or two on this one.

Thanks all for your comments,

Of course I asked Kai Wee and Shahrial about the Keris before posting it here. But I was also waiting for them to comment it on the forum as we decided to continue the discussion here.
Somehow I am attracted to unusual Keris, which of course means that I now and then maybe acquire a Keris that is a mix for different reasons.
But it's also an interesting learning experience discussing it with more experienced collectors.
My knowledge on how to place Keris blades is minimal so I am happy to read the comments of those who do and try to learn more about it

Michael

11th October 2006, 10:19 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Tricky Bugis Keris I have discussed this Keris with some of you but still nobody is really sure of from where it is. Hopefully the forum members here can shed some more light on its origin? Please note that it has Ganja Iras. Some references: From Adni's site: http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker..._sul_luk13.htm Tammens De Kris 3 page 88 pict 71. A very resembling hilt is classified as West Kalimantan. Hulu Keris page 83 pict 126. A slightly resembling hilt is classified as West Kalimantan (maybe influenced by Tammens?). Frey's The Kris pict 20 a. The Sampir/Wrangka of a Peninsula Keris slightly resembles this Keris. The blade resembles a bit the Keris Kapak Cina at The National Museum in KL http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php So where does it come from - West Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Sumatra or Malay Peninsula? Or is it a "traveller" or a "dealer's mix"? Michael Attached Images

13th October 2006, 04:46 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Marcokeris for your comments (and votes below)! On the selut it looks a bit like Palembang but it is more compressed. Like a mix of Bugis and Palembang maybe? On the blade, with your vote, so far there are 4 - 1 in votes for Sumatra (vs Sulawesi). On the sheath it's 3 - 1 - 1 in votes for Sulawesi (vs Sumatra and Malaysia). The hilt is 4 - 1 for Kalimantan (vs Sulawesi). Michael PS Two of the other 3 "voters" are active members of this forum. Please share your comments on why. Last edited by VVV; 13th October 2006 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Added PS

13th October 2006, 09:41 AM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	64 views and no clues? Michael

13th October 2006, 01:27 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Nice old keris! But a puzzle to guess from where it comes. Surely the selut is from Sumatra. The hilt (nice the decoration) 90% would be from kalimantan (...but also, maybe, from Malaysia?) . Sarong and silver pendok would be from Sulawesi . About the blade i don't understand where it comes ( Sumatra?). Surely a good smith made nice dapur and nice pamor (tritik or untu walang) ....(sorry for my english)

13th October 2006, 05:40 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hi Michael. I have been sitting back waiting for more knowledgable members than me to comment on this keris. I would think that Kai Wee or Shahrial would have a word or two on this one. I feel a bit out of my territory with keris outside the Jawa/Bali/Madura circle, but i still want and need to know so much more. That said i would certainly venture to say this keris is a mixed bag. I am not sure it is always fair to say such combinations are "dealer mixes". Sometimes a blade legitimately moves from one region to another and gets re-dressed appropriately for that region. Sometimes a blade from somewher like Jawa will be imported into another area of Indonesia. Not saying this isn't a "dealer's mix", just can't tell. On the blade i would vote for Sumatra and the sheath, Sulawesi, so i guess i am with the majority here. I don't know much about this hilt so i couldn't say.

15th October 2006, 03:57 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, its a mix. How, when, where, why , we can only guess. The blade is an older Madurese one. Note the angle of the gandik, as if it wants to fall into the body of the keris. Note the whispy style of the kembang kacang. Look carefully at the greneng, especially the ron dha.Note that this blade is comparatively recent and has very little evidence of erosion. Ever seen a Javanese greneng or ron dha like this? Of course not! Look at the distance from the luk nearest the point to point itself. One of the indicators of a Madurese keris is that it has a long point. Look at the pamor:- relatively complex, involving both surface manipulation and a forge manipulation. The core will be found to be hard steel, where it has been heat treated. Where else will you find this type of material and workmanship? This is a Madura blade. In attempting to identify origin of a blade you should first disregard the dress in which it is found, and then look at each feature of the blade, do not just look at the overall blade. Pay close attention to the way in which the greneng, especially the ron dha , is cut. Look at the detail in the kembang kacang----how long is it? rate of taper? substantial? flimsy? In the case of this blade, all these details only confirm the immediate impression:- you see a gandik like that, and it is almost certain that you are looking at an older Madura piece.