Old Java Keris ???

Gavin Nugent · 14th July 2020, 04:09 PM

I know very little about keris, even less where Java Keris are concerned. Some years ago I shared this with a member. To my surprise he placed this in the 17th century.

It seems to have travelled a long way as many keris have over the centuries, dressed in a Minangkabau hulu but retaining it's Java sarong.

Its a monster of a blade compared to all other Java blades I've had and have.

Gavin

Marcokeris · 14th July 2020, 07:30 PM

the blade seems to me Balinese, hilt from Sumatra and mendak and sarong from Java

kai · 14th July 2020, 11:09 PM

I'm with Marco on the parts of this ensemble, Gavin.

The nice Bali blade deserves some warangan to bring out the pamor...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 14th July 2020, 11:20 PM

In my opinion this keris is early Jawa.

Difficult to place in time, probably a very knowledgeable Javanese enthusiast might give it as something like Kahuripan, that relates to pre-Majapahit East Jawa,which in my opinion cannot be supported by either historical or monumental evidence, but as a classification rather than a place in time, it might stand. There are things that cannot be appraised from a photograph that would need appraisal before I could give a tangguh classification.

My preference is to relate this blade to the very large Javanese blades from the North Coast that immediately followed the collapse of Majapahit and the migration of smiths to the West.

16th century seems reasonable, this would place in the 1500's, Majapahit collapsed around 1525.

17th century is too late because the Demak/Pajang/Mataram forms were dominant at that time.

15th century is too early because during the 1400's the keris was undergoing change from the old Bethok/Buda form to the Modern Keris that we know now.

Of course, if this keris were to be stripped of dress and given a good clean and then stained, most collectors would give it as Bali, I might even do so myself, and then probably place it in the 19th century. But it is not reasonable to assume a 19th century Balinese blade is going to be dressed in very old, probably damaged, North Coast Jawa dress.

EDIT
Close examination of detail cannot support very early East Jawa such as Kahuripan or Jenggolo, there are features that might be able to be aligned to Majapahit, but it would be difficult to convince most people we were looking at a Mojo blade because nobody living has ever seen one in original condition and known with certainty what they were looking at.

The overall length might prove to be a bit short for the North Coast blades I have in mind, but I think overall I need to stay with North Coast, 1500's:- size, workmanship(garap), details pretty much rule out anything else, and the dress rules out 19th century Bali.

David · 15th July 2020, 03:12 AM

Alan certainly knows better on the details, but i also would have placed this blade as Javanese. I would have said post Mojopahit. Pre seems too early to me. Seems is fairly nice condition and could use some TLC.

I'd like to see better photos of the hilt. I'm not sure it is Minang.

Gavin Nugent · 15th July 2020, 05:38 AM

Alan,

Thank you very much for your supporting insight in to this wonderful old Keris.

If COVID ever ends I'd be more happy to provide you with this Keris in the hand to enjoy. We've family in the Blue Mountains we'd like to see once this all settles down and if not too far out of the way, happy to make a detour to you.

Are there further images or details that would help you in understanding this keris from afar?

David,

Thank you for your interest. I will take some photos of this most unusual and unique hulu.

With thanks

Gavin

14th July 2020, 04:09 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Old Java Keris ??? I know very little about keris, even less where Java Keris are concerned. Some years ago I shared this with a member. To my surprise he placed this in the 17th century. It seems to have travelled a long way as many keris have over the centuries, dressed in a Minangkabau hulu but retaining it's Java sarong. Its a monster of a blade compared to all other Java blades I've had and have. Gavin Attached Images

14th July 2020, 11:20 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	In my opinion this keris is early Jawa. Difficult to place in time, probably a very knowledgeable Javanese enthusiast might give it as something like Kahuripan, that relates to pre-Majapahit East Jawa,which in my opinion cannot be supported by either historical or monumental evidence, but as a classification rather than a place in time, it might stand. There are things that cannot be appraised from a photograph that would need appraisal before I could give a tangguh classification. My preference is to relate this blade to the very large Javanese blades from the North Coast that immediately followed the collapse of Majapahit and the migration of smiths to the West. 16th century seems reasonable, this would place in the 1500's, Majapahit collapsed around 1525. 17th century is too late because the Demak/Pajang/Mataram forms were dominant at that time. 15th century is too early because during the 1400's the keris was undergoing change from the old Bethok/Buda form to the Modern Keris that we know now. Of course, if this keris were to be stripped of dress and given a good clean and then stained, most collectors would give it as Bali, I might even do so myself, and then probably place it in the 19th century. But it is not reasonable to assume a 19th century Balinese blade is going to be dressed in very old, probably damaged, North Coast Jawa dress. EDIT Close examination of detail cannot support very early East Jawa such as Kahuripan or Jenggolo, there are features that might be able to be aligned to Majapahit, but it would be difficult to convince most people we were looking at a Mojo blade because nobody living has ever seen one in original condition and known with certainty what they were looking at. The overall length might prove to be a bit short for the North Coast blades I have in mind, but I think overall I need to stay with North Coast, 1500's:- size, workmanship(garap), details pretty much rule out anything else, and the dress rules out 19th century Bali. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 14th July 2020 at 11:56 PM.

14th July 2020, 07:30 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	the blade seems to me Balinese, hilt from Sumatra and mendak and sarong from Java

14th July 2020, 11:09 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	I'm with Marco on the parts of this ensemble, Gavin. The nice Bali blade deserves some warangan to bring out the pamor... Regards, Kai

15th July 2020, 03:12 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Alan certainly knows better on the details, but i also would have placed this blade as Javanese. I would have said post Mojopahit. Pre seems too early to me. Seems is fairly nice condition and could use some TLC. I'd like to see better photos of the hilt. I'm not sure it is Minang.

15th July 2020, 05:38 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Alan, Thank you very much for your supporting insight in to this wonderful old Keris. If COVID ever ends I'd be more happy to provide you with this Keris in the hand to enjoy. We've family in the Blue Mountains we'd like to see once this all settles down and if not too far out of the way, happy to make a detour to you. Are there further images or details that would help you in understanding this keris from afar? David, Thank you for your interest. I will take some photos of this most unusual and unique hulu. With thanks Gavin