Question of Spear origins

Gavin Nugent · 6th May 2011, 11:27 AM

The unusual form prompted me enough to add it to the spear collection.

The thrusting tip does have some similarities to Song Dynasty spear heads but that's all I have turned up thus far.

Any one aware of the origins of this spear? An ID would be appreciated.

It is 8'6", the butt is a bronze cap and that's all I know other than the tip looks slightly off centre and the patina is very old. At the tip, I see a hint of an exposed tang going in to the wood but I am uncertain if this is so or if it is just age timber looking this way.

The images are the best I can do for now.

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 10th May 2011, 02:50 PM

No takers...guesses...points of interest for further research?

Nathaniel · 10th May 2011, 04:41 PM

That is a hard one Gavin. Not much info out there on Chinese polearms or pole arms in general so much attention usually goes towards swords, knives, and guns.

Nathaniel · 10th May 2011, 04:45 PM

Song dynasty spear. Any pictures or references?

Is the spear very heavy? Does it seem like the tang runs far into the shaft....perhaps through the entire piece?

Nathaniel · 10th May 2011, 04:45 PM

How long is the spear head?

Gavin Nugent · 11th May 2011, 03:42 AM

Thanks Nathaniel,

I will know more on the length of the head when in hand some time away.
There is so little info on spears in general unless they're African, that I find unusual versions very interesting and the numbers at home are growing.
I do not think this is Chinese at all, just noting similar shaping to the head. The bronze butt is similar to Moro profiles but the large dome centre at the very end I can not recall seeing nor does the tip form fit Moro regions to my eyes.
Note too the thicker base area and tapering to the head, this too may indicate region

Gav

colin henshaw · 11th May 2011, 01:42 PM

Hi

Interesting piece. I quite like spears, polearms etc., but as you say not much published on them. Anything in Stone's Glossary ?

It does have a bit of a Chinese look to me, coincidentally the ridged bronze ? sleeve near the point, reminds me of some handles on archaic Chinese swords...

Regards.

koto · 11th May 2011, 02:16 PM

doesn't look like Chinese

Gavin Nugent · 12th May 2011, 12:56 AM

David,

I think your notation of a lance rings more true than a spear when considering the thicker base of the shaft for counter balance and the tip more akin to armour piercing as is the way with cavalry lances. Interesting now to consider nations that used the horse more than foot in this instance...in my mind it rules out a lot of SEA countries, thank you.

Colin,

I had only looked at the spears pages closely and saw nothing similar but I have yet to thumb through the whole book as entries are often a surprise in his work, never where you'd expect them to be at face value so I will again have a look through.

Koto,

I agree, I do not think it is Chinese though it does have some interesting aspects that are seen on Chinese spear/pole weapons, that being a tang and a supportive collar under the blade to prevent the tang breaking out of the wood....though it lacks rivets typically seen at this point on those weapons. It is a rather unusual form, where do you think it might be from?

Gav

As an extra thought, the domed butt is more in line with something suitable in the saddle where infantry lances/spears typically had a butt spike.....

katana · 13th May 2011, 03:22 PM

Gav,
without any evidence, my 'gut feeling' is that this is Indo persian and if so, likely 'pre' colonial (ie before the European type lance gained 'favour' ) There is a possibility that it could be used from an Elephant ....Indian elephants are smaller than their African brothers.

Regards David

Gavin Nugent · 14th May 2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Gav,
without any evidence, my 'gut feeling' is that this is Indo persian and if so, likely 'pre' colonial (ie before the European type lance gained 'favour' ) There is a possibility that it could be used from an Elephant ....Indian elephants are smaller than their African brothers.

Regards David

David,

Very plausible origins.

Communications with another astute member also suggested India. I wasn't going to start in India as a point of elimination but since several notations 'suggest' India I have started there tonight.

Although not of the type, Elgood presents spear blades with tangs and collars as did another reference to boar hunting in India....all showing 'loosely' similar profiled collars o various degree but partial tangs rather than what appears to be a full tang on this piece...maybe a step closer....

.....

Thanks

Gav

6th May 2011, 11:27 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Question of Spear origins The unusual form prompted me enough to add it to the spear collection. The thrusting tip does have some similarities to Song Dynasty spear heads but that's all I have turned up thus far. Any one aware of the origins of this spear? An ID would be appreciated. It is 8'6", the butt is a bronze cap and that's all I know other than the tip looks slightly off centre and the patina is very old. At the tip, I see a hint of an exposed tang going in to the wood but I am uncertain if this is so or if it is just age timber looking this way. The images are the best I can do for now. Gav Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 6th May 2011 at 11:52 AM.

10th May 2011, 02:50 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	BUMP! No takers...guesses...points of interest for further research?

11th May 2011, 03:42 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Length Thanks Nathaniel, I will know more on the length of the head when in hand some time away. There is so little info on spears in general unless they're African, that I find unusual versions very interesting and the numbers at home are growing. I do not think this is Chinese at all, just noting similar shaping to the head. The bronze butt is similar to Moro profiles but the large dome centre at the very end I can not recall seeing nor does the tip form fit Moro regions to my eyes. Note too the thicker base area and tapering to the head, this too may indicate region Gav

12th May 2011, 12:56 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	your thoughts, thank you David, I think your notation of a lance rings more true than a spear when considering the thicker base of the shaft for counter balance and the tip more akin to armour piercing as is the way with cavalry lances. Interesting now to consider nations that used the horse more than foot in this instance...in my mind it rules out a lot of SEA countries, thank you. Colin, I had only looked at the spears pages closely and saw nothing similar but I have yet to thumb through the whole book as entries are often a surprise in his work, never where you'd expect them to be at face value so I will again have a look through. Koto, I agree, I do not think it is Chinese though it does have some interesting aspects that are seen on Chinese spear/pole weapons, that being a tang and a supportive collar under the blade to prevent the tang breaking out of the wood....though it lacks rivets typically seen at this point on those weapons. It is a rather unusual form, where do you think it might be from? Gav As an extra thought, the domed butt is more in line with something suitable in the saddle where infantry lances/spears typically had a butt spike..... Last edited by freebooter; 12th May 2011 at 02:07 AM. Reason: other thoughts

10th May 2011, 04:41 PM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	That is a hard one Gavin. Not much info out there on Chinese polearms or pole arms in general so much attention usually goes towards swords, knives, and guns.

10th May 2011, 04:45 PM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Song dynasty spear. Any pictures or references? Is the spear very heavy? Does it seem like the tang runs far into the shaft....perhaps through the entire piece?

11th May 2011, 01:42 PM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Interesting piece. I quite like spears, polearms etc., but as you say not much published on them. Anything in Stone's Glossary ? It does have a bit of a Chinese look to me, coincidentally the ridged bronze ? sleeve near the point, reminds me of some handles on archaic Chinese swords... Regards.

11th May 2011, 02:16 PM	#8
koto Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 27	doesn't look like Chinese

13th May 2011, 03:22 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Gav, without any evidence, my 'gut feeling' is that this is Indo persian and if so, likely 'pre' colonial (ie before the European type lance gained 'favour' ) There is a possibility that it could be used from an Elephant ....Indian elephants are smaller than their African brothers. Regards David