Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria

TVV · 16th May 2005, 05:21 AM

The ethnographic edged weapons from Bulgaria are not that well studied. This is probably partly due to the fact that a big part of them is of course generally described as Ottoman, and while Bulgaria was under Ottoman rule for a significant part of her history - almost 5 centuries to be exact from 1398 to 1878, this is probably not quite correct for the purpose of the study of those weapons. There are some differences between certain weapon types from that part of the Balkans where Bulgaria is now and the rest of the vast Ottoman Empire, yataghans are what comes to mind, but also knidjals, bichaqs, khanjars, etc.
Also, there are certain weapons that are typical of Bulgaria only, and that have been receiving almost zero attention. One of them is the shephard's knife, for which I promise to make a thread here soon, and another type is the mystery, the topic of this thread.
Actually, I have to admit: the main reason I am starting this thread is to try to see if there is some information on these unknown (to me at least) weapons. I have been able to gather pictures of a few specimens, unfortunatelly none of which are in my collection. The first spcimen is a short sword, or an oversized kama, for which I have some provenance. It belongs to a very good friend of mine, who collects historical edged weapons and firearms, and according to him it is his family's relic, as the earliest of his predecessors he can trace back to acquired it from a Turk he killed with an axe. This is believed to have happened in the 17th or early 18th century. While this of course can never be conclusively proven (I have no reason to doubt his story, as long as it was passed to him correctly), here is a picture of the weapon among some other blades and scabbards that I hope do not distract too much:

The scales on the handle are made of horn, and to some extent resemble those on kindjals from the Caucasus, however the blade has a central rib rather than a fuller and overall this does not look like anything from the Caucasus I have personally seen.

The second item is a kama-like weapon, in the collection of another fellow collector in Bulgaria. He has no idea of what it could be, and he only vaguely believes there is a similar weapon in a museum in the town of Samokov, which is a very small town hidden in the Rila mountains that was a metallurgy center during the 16th, 17th, and 18th century, and lost its significance in the 19th century. Unfortunately, as of right now I do not have a picture, and the last time I was in Samokov happened to be more than 10 years ago, a little before my interest in edged weapons formed, so I do not remember anything. Here it is:

Again, double edged, horn scales hilt, and this time there are two decorative fullers (I do not know if I should even call them fullers) close to the edges, and a most extraordinary guard. It is hard to estimate age with any certainty.

Finally, here is a similar kama that sold on eBay recently that I am still kicking myself for not bidding on:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6517611858

It is of cruder and most probably later manufacture than the previous two, but its sheath has survived. It is deffinitely not a Bulgarian version of a Caucasus kindjal, and to prove that here is a small picture of a typical Bulgarian kama, which is the local version that developped based on the Caucasus kindjals and kamas:

You can perhaps see the obvious differences.
So here is the question: does anybody know anything about these weapons? They most deffinitely came from Bulgaria. As of their age, nothing is certain. One needs to keep in mind that Caucasus kindjals arrived in Bulgarian lands with Muslim Circassians that the Ottomans relocated from the Caucasus (I believe nowadays Chechnya and Dagestan) to areas with troublesome Christians in an attempt to act as a counterforce to the latter. The three weapons that I have posted are certainly not derived from the Caucasus kindjals and therefore they should be earlier, probably dating back to the 18th century or maybe even earlier, to the 17th. Are they derived from western daggers/swords? Or are they atavistic medieval forms that survived in this corner of the Ottoman Empire for quite a long time? Has anybody seen something similar in neighboring countries (Radu, Eftihis, Yannis, Erlikhan)? Maybe someone here will have some clues, and it is possible that the three weapons turn out to not be from the same group and even to have very little in common, who knows? Whatever the case, I am eager for your opinions and respones.
Best regards,
Teodor

Oriental-Arms · 16th May 2005, 07:07 AM

The dagger shown in the last photo Which you describe as a typical Bulgarian Kama is interesting. We came across a similar dagger which we could not identify and placed it more to the middle east, east Turkey or Syria, mainly because of the brass frame and the decoration style on the grip. See below:

The Bulgarian attribution is a refreshing information. Do you have more details as to its origin: Written material? Museums? Etc.

TVV · 16th May 2005, 07:48 AM

Yes, actually the last photo from my previous post was taken in the Bulgarian National Museum of Military History by my father (the person you can see in the reflection on the glass cover). Here is the whole photo of this dagger together with a few other kindjals, the little sign next to it you can barely see reads "Kama, Balkan Type" in Bulgarian:

If I am not mistaken, sometime ago on this forum there was a dagger of the same type posted that had markings of a cutlery in the town of Gabrovo, Central Bulgaria. I found it, unfortunately the pictures are long gone:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002483.html
Perhaps Ariel has kept them or has a similar one?

I do not have any written material, since, well, there has been very little material on Bulgarian edged weapons from that period, just one book called "Weaponry of the Past" by Nikola Daskalov and Viara Kovacheva, Sofia Press 1989, in English, but unfortunately it is mostly on firarms and has just a few examples of edged weapons, among which none exactly like this particular one.
But yes, this particular brass frame is Bulgarian, I am absolutely sure about it. The circles decoration is not untypical of the Balkans at all, I have seen it on Bulgarian, Greek and Bosnian pieces.
I hope Ariel wil read this and support it with further examples, and possibly provide some clues as to the three mystery items.
Regards,
Teodor

Rivkin · 16th May 2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

The scales on the handle are made of horn, and to some extent resemble those on kindjals from the Caucasus, however the blade has a central rib rather than a fuller and overall this does not look like anything from the Caucasus I have personally seen.

Central rib is characteristic to kidnjals from Georgia, usually relatively late ones - 1850 and later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

You can perhaps see the obvious differences.
So here is the question: does anybody know anything about these weapons? They most deffinitely came from Bulgaria. As of their age, nothing is certain. One needs to keep in mind that Caucasus kindjals arrived in Bulgarian lands with Muslim Circassians that the Ottomans relocated from the Caucasus (I believe nowadays Chechnya and Dagestan).

No. Circassians are from Circassia, Kabarda, Adighe (the lands named after their individual tribes) and so on.

My ignorant opinion would be - one of the kamas (last photo) shown are actually much closer to turkish kindjals than to circassian ones (many red dots - coralls? on the hilt). The top kindjal is also more southern then circassian, and may be even more of a georgian/armenian type. In light of this I would think that probably kindjals came to Bolgaria with turks and turkish trade rather than with circassians alone. That explains the range of sizes and styles we see - some are more like turkish, some are like georgian, some can be circassian.

Concerning the balkan kama with many fullers - I'm lost here - have no idea where it comes from.

Jim McDougall · 16th May 2005, 05:29 PM

Teodor,
Excellent thread! Thank you for posting this. You're right, Bulgaria is seldom described specifically and often falls under the 'Ottoman' umbrella, as do many 'Balkan' weapons. This a a great idea to get specifics that may help differentiate, like the example with the circle and dot motif on the grips.
This particular motif seems to occur often on Afghan weapons. One that comes to mind is the folding lohar discussed a number of times in recent years.
Best regards,
Jim

TVV · 17th May 2005, 12:09 AM

Rivkin, you are right: kindjals came to Bulgaria before the Circassians with trade, and also let us not forget that some came not via the Ottomans, but via the Russians in the Russo-Turkish wars. However, the number of kindjals in Bulgaria certainly increased after Circassians were relocated to the Balkans.
I absolutely agree with your observations on the kindjals in the last photo I posted: there is a big variety among them and my guess is that this was the purpose of the display: the curators wanted to show together as many different knidjal types as possible. To be honest with you, the top one that looks Armenian as you point out (or Persian?), the one with the central fuller and the koftgiri on blade, is not one you would find easily in Bulgaria. The vast majority of what I have seen owned by collectors, offered for sale or in museums are kindjals with an off-centered fuller and very little in terms of decoration, and the already mentioned smaller kamas with a hilt encased in brass that are typical Bulgarian.
Interesting discussion so far, thanks to all participants, hopefully we will get some more clues about the three mysterious weapons I started the thread with.

erlikhan · 17th May 2005, 09:49 PM

interesting. i am not sure if this type can be a Bulgaria or Balkan specialty, as i know similar ones currently offered by a seller from a western Anadolu town in Turkey. close to Izmir. They took my attention because of your post, and asked from where he found these kamas, and replied "from local villages". But I agree especially the upper one is not in the classical known Turkish kama hilt form. it is nearly completely same with yours. could be a regular Russian army kama, brought back by a Turkish soldier after 1877 war?

TVV · 17th May 2005, 11:24 PM

I highly doubt it is Russian. Here is another example, which belongs to a different friend of mine, and which he inherited from his grandfather:

I do not know if this type of kamas are Balkan or Bulgarian, but they are relatively late, I would say from the end of the 19th century and quite abundant in Bulgaria. How a few of them could end up near Izmir I do not know: trade, wars, and that can be not only the Russo-Turkish wars, but also the Balkan War, and in WWI there were Turkish troops passing trhough Bulgaria as allies too. Let us not forget that unfortunately there have been many Turkish immigrants to Turkey from Bulgaria throughout the years, from 1878 to the 1980s. Izmir has always been a big city and an important port in the area and certainly the area around it would have attracted people seeking jobs and dwellings.

16th May 2005, 05:21 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria The ethnographic edged weapons from Bulgaria are not that well studied. This is probably partly due to the fact that a big part of them is of course generally described as Ottoman, and while Bulgaria was under Ottoman rule for a significant part of her history - almost 5 centuries to be exact from 1398 to 1878, this is probably not quite correct for the purpose of the study of those weapons. There are some differences between certain weapon types from that part of the Balkans where Bulgaria is now and the rest of the vast Ottoman Empire, yataghans are what comes to mind, but also knidjals, bichaqs, khanjars, etc. Also, there are certain weapons that are typical of Bulgaria only, and that have been receiving almost zero attention. One of them is the shephard's knife, for which I promise to make a thread here soon, and another type is the mystery, the topic of this thread. Actually, I have to admit: the main reason I am starting this thread is to try to see if there is some information on these unknown (to me at least) weapons. I have been able to gather pictures of a few specimens, unfortunatelly none of which are in my collection. The first spcimen is a short sword, or an oversized kama, for which I have some provenance. It belongs to a very good friend of mine, who collects historical edged weapons and firearms, and according to him it is his family's relic, as the earliest of his predecessors he can trace back to acquired it from a Turk he killed with an axe. This is believed to have happened in the 17th or early 18th century. While this of course can never be conclusively proven (I have no reason to doubt his story, as long as it was passed to him correctly), here is a picture of the weapon among some other blades and scabbards that I hope do not distract too much: The scales on the handle are made of horn, and to some extent resemble those on kindjals from the Caucasus, however the blade has a central rib rather than a fuller and overall this does not look like anything from the Caucasus I have personally seen. The second item is a kama-like weapon, in the collection of another fellow collector in Bulgaria. He has no idea of what it could be, and he only vaguely believes there is a similar weapon in a museum in the town of Samokov, which is a very small town hidden in the Rila mountains that was a metallurgy center during the 16th, 17th, and 18th century, and lost its significance in the 19th century. Unfortunately, as of right now I do not have a picture, and the last time I was in Samokov happened to be more than 10 years ago, a little before my interest in edged weapons formed, so I do not remember anything. Here it is: Again, double edged, horn scales hilt, and this time there are two decorative fullers (I do not know if I should even call them fullers) close to the edges, and a most extraordinary guard. It is hard to estimate age with any certainty. Finally, here is a similar kama that sold on eBay recently that I am still kicking myself for not bidding on: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6517611858 It is of cruder and most probably later manufacture than the previous two, but its sheath has survived. It is deffinitely not a Bulgarian version of a Caucasus kindjal, and to prove that here is a small picture of a typical Bulgarian kama, which is the local version that developped based on the Caucasus kindjals and kamas: You can perhaps see the obvious differences. So here is the question: does anybody know anything about these weapons? They most deffinitely came from Bulgaria. As of their age, nothing is certain. One needs to keep in mind that Caucasus kindjals arrived in Bulgarian lands with Muslim Circassians that the Ottomans relocated from the Caucasus (I believe nowadays Chechnya and Dagestan) to areas with troublesome Christians in an attempt to act as a counterforce to the latter. The three weapons that I have posted are certainly not derived from the Caucasus kindjals and therefore they should be earlier, probably dating back to the 18th century or maybe even earlier, to the 17th. Are they derived from western daggers/swords? Or are they atavistic medieval forms that survived in this corner of the Ottoman Empire for quite a long time? Has anybody seen something similar in neighboring countries (Radu, Eftihis, Yannis, Erlikhan)? Maybe someone here will have some clues, and it is possible that the three weapons turn out to not be from the same group and even to have very little in common, who knows? Whatever the case, I am eager for your opinions and respones. Best regards, Teodor

16th May 2005, 07:07 AM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Bulgarian Kama The dagger shown in the last photo Which you describe as a typical Bulgarian Kama is interesting. We came across a similar dagger which we could not identify and placed it more to the middle east, east Turkey or Syria, mainly because of the brass frame and the decoration style on the grip. See below: The Bulgarian attribution is a refreshing information. Do you have more details as to its origin: Written material? Museums? Etc.

17th May 2005, 09:49 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	interesting. i am not sure if this type can be a Bulgaria or Balkan specialty, as i know similar ones currently offered by a seller from a western Anadolu town in Turkey. close to Izmir. They took my attention because of your post, and asked from where he found these kamas, and replied "from local villages". But I agree especially the upper one is not in the classical known Turkish kama hilt form. it is nearly completely same with yours. could be a regular Russian army kama, brought back by a Turkish soldier after 1877 war? Attached Images

16th May 2005, 07:48 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Yes, actually the last photo from my previous post was taken in the Bulgarian National Museum of Military History by my father (the person you can see in the reflection on the glass cover). Here is the whole photo of this dagger together with a few other kindjals, the little sign next to it you can barely see reads "Kama, Balkan Type" in Bulgarian: If I am not mistaken, sometime ago on this forum there was a dagger of the same type posted that had markings of a cutlery in the town of Gabrovo, Central Bulgaria. I found it, unfortunately the pictures are long gone: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002483.html Perhaps Ariel has kept them or has a similar one? I do not have any written material, since, well, there has been very little material on Bulgarian edged weapons from that period, just one book called "Weaponry of the Past" by Nikola Daskalov and Viara Kovacheva, Sofia Press 1989, in English, but unfortunately it is mostly on firarms and has just a few examples of edged weapons, among which none exactly like this particular one. But yes, this particular brass frame is Bulgarian, I am absolutely sure about it. The circles decoration is not untypical of the Balkans at all, I have seen it on Bulgarian, Greek and Bosnian pieces. I hope Ariel wil read this and support it with further examples, and possibly provide some clues as to the three mystery items. Regards, Teodor

16th May 2005, 05:29 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Teodor, Excellent thread! Thank you for posting this. You're right, Bulgaria is seldom described specifically and often falls under the 'Ottoman' umbrella, as do many 'Balkan' weapons. This a a great idea to get specifics that may help differentiate, like the example with the circle and dot motif on the grips. This particular motif seems to occur often on Afghan weapons. One that comes to mind is the folding lohar discussed a number of times in recent years. Best regards, Jim

17th May 2005, 12:09 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Rivkin, you are right: kindjals came to Bulgaria before the Circassians with trade, and also let us not forget that some came not via the Ottomans, but via the Russians in the Russo-Turkish wars. However, the number of kindjals in Bulgaria certainly increased after Circassians were relocated to the Balkans. I absolutely agree with your observations on the kindjals in the last photo I posted: there is a big variety among them and my guess is that this was the purpose of the display: the curators wanted to show together as many different knidjal types as possible. To be honest with you, the top one that looks Armenian as you point out (or Persian?), the one with the central fuller and the koftgiri on blade, is not one you would find easily in Bulgaria. The vast majority of what I have seen owned by collectors, offered for sale or in museums are kindjals with an off-centered fuller and very little in terms of decoration, and the already mentioned smaller kamas with a hilt encased in brass that are typical Bulgarian. Interesting discussion so far, thanks to all participants, hopefully we will get some more clues about the three mysterious weapons I started the thread with.

17th May 2005, 11:24 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	I highly doubt it is Russian. Here is another example, which belongs to a different friend of mine, and which he inherited from his grandfather: I do not know if this type of kamas are Balkan or Bulgarian, but they are relatively late, I would say from the end of the 19th century and quite abundant in Bulgaria. How a few of them could end up near Izmir I do not know: trade, wars, and that can be not only the Russo-Turkish wars, but also the Balkan War, and in WWI there were Turkish troops passing trhough Bulgaria as allies too. Let us not forget that unfortunately there have been many Turkish immigrants to Turkey from Bulgaria throughout the years, from 1878 to the 1980s. Izmir has always been a big city and an important port in the area and certainly the area around it would have attracted people seeking jobs and dwellings.