Marked Sundanese Pisau Raut: Galuh-Pajajaran?

naturalist · 31st May 2024, 04:39 AM

Even though the meaning of raut is not an indication of a weapon, but this knife definitely has a function as a weapon.
Got the knife without complete dress, handle made of water buffalo horn.
The handle itself most likely has different age compared to the blade.

On the back, the darker line is the core (the steel).
A friend said, based on the appearance of the metal and the shape of the blade, most likely it is from Galuh-Pakuan era, i amnot sure precisely.

The other friend said that the marking may be Z - Na (seneu = fire), but i amnot sure which one is correct since it could be Tja/Ca (light).

Ian · 1st June 2024, 06:04 PM

Is this actually a pisau raut (rattan knife)?

naturalist · 2nd June 2024, 02:52 PM

Good day Ian, definitely it is not. Myself is really got lost in the world of Pisau Raut, every single time i asked to Indonesian Pisau Raut Group why they are grouping various shape of knives to big group of pisau raut, no one gave clear answer. But they are mentioned several names of pisau raut, such as; jajangkar (from the shape close to the one that use in cut the flower of palm for harvesting the sap), jonggol, teundeut, and pangot. The shape of teundeut and jonggol (Jonggol is a place near to Bogor, West Java) are close to Punal Criollo. They put all knives that for splitting rattan, write on lontar, carving, fighting (just like in in this post) into one group, pisau raut. So it has range on size from few centimeters to close to 35 cm.

Cheers,
Anton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Is this actually a pisau raut (rattan knife)?

.

Ian · 2nd June 2024, 03:07 PM

naturalist, that sounds very confusing!

It reminds me of the "Filipino bolo," which can be many different shapes and sizes, and used for many different purposes (agricultural tool, brush clearing, wood cutting, general purpose jungle knife, weapon, etc.).

Again, we come up against the futility of trying to understand the "name game" with regard to local usage. An item is called by whatever term its owner thinks it should be called based on common usage within the local culture. This legitimizes the designated name (even if it makes little sense to outsiders, such as collectors).

Sajen · 2nd June 2024, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Is this actually a pisau raut (rattan knife)?

Hi Ian,

This knife has nothing to do with the side knife from a mandau!

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 2nd June 2024, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

This knife has nothing to do with the side knife from a mandau!

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks Detlef. Yes, I understand that there are other forms of pisau raut, but I have not seen one before of this blade shape or that has been etched in this manner. The etching seems to have led to quite a lot of delamination.

Ian.

naturalist · 7th June 2024, 04:36 PM

I do have few dozens of "pisau raut", this one is in the original forms, it wasn't a result of etching. If i am not mistaken at least i have 2 or three with similar shape, with a little differences on the shape of the integral bolster. Will post in the future all of the forms of the knives that i have at home. Pisau raut and badik in villages in west part of Java (West Java to Banten) rarely applied with warang even though the knives are pattern welded. I do have really nice pamor badik but covered with thick "misik" oil. Fragrant sticky oil. Even many of my old goloks are covered with misik oil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks Detlef. Yes, I understand that there are other forms of pisau raut, but I have not seen one before of this blade shape or that has been etched in this manner. The etching seems to have led to quite a lot of delamination.

Ian.

Ren Ren · 2nd June 2024, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

This knife has nothing to do with the side knife from a mandau!

Regards,
Detlef

I completely agree!

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2024, 10:00 PM

There are a couple of things that tell us exactly what a pisau raut is, the first is that in Malay languages the purpose to which something is put will often, perhaps usually, give it its name, it can be one thing in the garden, another thing in the house. One thing for one person, a different thing for a different person. Malay, Javanese, Basa Indonesia --- which is a form of Malay --- are to a high degree, situational languages. Thus the idea that a single name is sufficient for any & all objects of a similar form is a pretty silly idea.

Ian is very close to the mark.

Then we have the dictionary meaning of the words:-

pisau = knife

raut in BI means shape or form, and it is a root word, addition of prefixes and suffixes provides other words. When we combine pisau & raut we get pisau raut & that means a knife that is used to give shape to something, it can be a knife used for whittling, a knife used for carving, a knife used for smoothing. It can be a knife used for sharpening pencils.For example, a pensil sharpener is a rautan.

if we wish to understand another society or culture or the things that they produce, the first thing we need to do is learn the language. It helps one hell of a lot.

naturalist · 7th June 2024, 04:36 PM

thank you so much Sir

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There are a couple of things that tell us exactly what a pisau raut is, the first is that in Malay languages the purpose to which something is put will often, perhaps usually, give it its name, it can be one thing in the garden, another thing in the house. One thing for one person, a different thing for a different person. Malay, Javanese, Basa Indonesia --- which is a form of Malay --- are to a high degree, situational languages. Thus the idea that a single name is sufficient for any & all objects of a similar form is a pretty silly idea.

Ian is very close to the mark.

Then we have the dictionary meaning of the words:-

pisau = knife

raut in BI means shape or form, and it is a root word, addition of prefixes and suffixes provides other words. When we combine pisau & raut we get pisau raut & that means a knife that is used to give shape to something, it can be a knife used for whittling, a knife used for carving, a knife used for smoothing. It can be a knife used for sharpening pencils.For example, a pensil sharpener is a rautan.

if we wish to understand another society or culture or the things that they produce, the first thing we need to do is learn the language. It helps one hell of a lot.

31st May 2024, 04:39 AM	#1
naturalist Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 64	Marked Sundanese Pisau Raut: Galuh-Pajajaran? Even though the meaning of raut is not an indication of a weapon, but this knife definitely has a function as a weapon. Got the knife without complete dress, handle made of water buffalo horn. The handle itself most likely has different age compared to the blade. On the back, the darker line is the core (the steel). A friend said, based on the appearance of the metal and the shape of the blade, most likely it is from Galuh-Pakuan era, i amnot sure precisely. The other friend said that the marking may be Z - Na (seneu = fire), but i amnot sure which one is correct since it could be Tja/Ca (light). Attached Images

2nd June 2024, 03:07 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	naturalist, that sounds very confusing! It reminds me of the "Filipino bolo," which can be many different shapes and sizes, and used for many different purposes (agricultural tool, brush clearing, wood cutting, general purpose jungle knife, weapon, etc.). Again, we come up against the futility of trying to understand the "name game" with regard to local usage. An item is called by whatever term its owner thinks it should be called based on common usage within the local culture. This legitimizes the designated name (even if it makes little sense to outsiders, such as collectors). Last edited by Ian; 2nd June 2024 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Spelling

1st June 2024, 06:04 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Is this actually a pisau raut (rattan knife)?

2nd June 2024, 10:00 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	There are a couple of things that tell us exactly what a pisau raut is, the first is that in Malay languages the purpose to which something is put will often, perhaps usually, give it its name, it can be one thing in the garden, another thing in the house. One thing for one person, a different thing for a different person. Malay, Javanese, Basa Indonesia --- which is a form of Malay --- are to a high degree, situational languages. Thus the idea that a single name is sufficient for any & all objects of a similar form is a pretty silly idea. Ian is very close to the mark. Then we have the dictionary meaning of the words:- pisau = knife raut in BI means shape or form, and it is a root word, addition of prefixes and suffixes provides other words. When we combine pisau & raut we get pisau raut & that means a knife that is used to give shape to something, it can be a knife used for whittling, a knife used for carving, a knife used for smoothing. It can be a knife used for sharpening pencils.For example, a pensil sharpener is a rautan. if we wish to understand another society or culture or the things that they produce, the first thing we need to do is learn the language. It helps one hell of a lot.