Eastern Arms in Armeria Reale di Torino

[B.I]

the armeria reale di torino has a fabulous collection of eastern and islamic arms. although not a big collection, its quality is very high. the museum is closed at the moment for refurbishment, but thought i'd share some of the pieces, in case i inspire anyone to make the journey.
two pieces attached are a taster (i finally got someting to get andrews attention) and will post more. the collection caters for all tastes, with a few great examples from all cultures inc kris,dha,ottoman,african, persian and, most importantly, south india ( )
sorry for the poor images.

[M.carter]

Whoa! The straight sword looks very arab in blade, very turkish in hilt. Very much like the swords in Topkapi. Thanks alot for the pics.

[B.I]

another

[B.I]

and another

[Andrew]

Wow. Thank you, Brian, for sharing these.

That first dha looks particularly nice. Is that gold set with jewels? Hard to tell much of the blade from the photos. I'll have more thoughts when I have some free time to look at this again.

The last sword you posted looks like a very fine version of the Vietnamese sabers presented by Philip Tom at Timonium this past March. However, I think this looks like a Thai sword. The decorative themes look Thai (I'm away from my sources, so I'm going on memory), as does the elephant. Is that, perhaps, a Thai royal seal? I'll check later tonight and see if I can find it.

Outstanding.

[Andrew]

A quick Google search indicates the symbol on the scabbard of that saber is, indeed, royal. It depicts a crown/pavilion eminating rays from the top. The elephant (?) below it didn't turn up, but I have the feeling I've seen it before.

Perhaps a personal seal/coat of arms.

[Andrew]

Found it!

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/th_k_his.html#kng

[Aqtai]

Beautiful swords Brian. I feel the decoration on the straight sword has more of an Iranian feel to it. I couldn't see it very clearly, but is that a simurgh beneath the hilt?

I think you know what's coming next.

I believe the museum also has a very small number of beautiful Turkish or Iranian armours, which I have only ever seen as very poor quality black and white photos. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of them by any chance?

[Ian]

Andrew has done a good job of nailing down the time period of your Thai sword to 1891-1910, the period of King Rama V of Siam. The three-headed elephant on the scabbard seems unique to the reign of Rama V.

The sword itself resembles quite closely the "parade swords" of Vietnam from the late 19th C., when that country was part of French Indo China, and I have thought that this style was heavily influenced by the French presence.

Not at all surprising to see a Thai version of this "parade sword," or "court sword," and this one has nicely worked cut out areas along the blade. Otherwise, the inlay work and jeweled handle show less refinement than seen on earlier dha, somewhat in common with the Vietnamese parade swords whose blades are really quite shoddy compared with the hilts and scabbards.

Ian.

[B.I]

i'm glad you were all impressed, although i would be both shocked and disappointed if you werent.
the last sword is from siam and apparantly made for umberto 1st (?).
outstanding andrew and ian, giorgi dondi dates the siam sword to circa 1897
ive had the catalogue for the museum for some time, and my girlfriend booked a surprise trip to the turin for me to see the museum. unfortunately, she didnt realise it was closed for refurbishment.
i was in contact with the author of the the catalogue and the museum director, but it was a weekend and there was no way they could open it up for me, although i have been promised full access should i go back on a weekday.
the author, (giorgio dondi) did come into turin and spent the whole day with me, showing me the fabulous city. we exchanged gifts and struggled through the language barriers, but he gave me the text of the catalogue on disc, (as well as his latest book), so i could get it (badly) translated online. if anyone can speak italian, i can put some of the descriptions up.
giorgio is a researcher and spent much time with the pieces from this collection, and so the desriptions seem well thought through and very thorough. the catalogue i have was from a temporary exhibition on oriental arms and it lists 36 pieces, all of which were fully researched and described.
aqtai, they do indeed have some very important ottoman armour. i only have one image, unfortunately, which i will try and post soon.

[ariel]

The last sword (Thai/ Vietnamese-like) looks very much similar to the one from Leeds we've discussed earlier.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=758

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by ariel

The last sword (Thai/ Vietnamese-like) looks very much similar to the one from Leeds we've discussed earlier.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=758

I do see some similarities, particularly about the pommel.

Here is a photo of the type of sword Ian and I are talking about:

Courtesy, Oriental-Arms

[Ian]

Originally Posted by B.I

if anyone can speak italian, i can put some of the descriptions up.

B.I.

Good idea. If you scan the Italian text I'm sure someone will be able to translate it. Put it up and see who steps forward.

Ian.

[B.I]

this was the text for the siam sword. this was an early draft, i believe one of the first which was ammended and shifted around by giorgio, but its the only one i have on disc.

G.386
Siam, circa 1897
Sciabola presentata da Rama V, re del Siam, a Umberto I, re d’Italia

Lama piuttosto stretta, poco curva, regolarmente rastremata, acuta, a un taglio, a sezione di cuneo, traforata lungo la mezzeria fino in prossimità della punta così da risparmiare un motivo sinuoso, lungo il quale corre una decorazione fogliata a koftgari d’oro; al tallone è un altro motivo, sempre a koftgari d’oro, racchiuso in un perimetro di forma peculiare formato da un rettangolo più un triangolo. Fornimenti e fodero in rame interamente coperto da smalti champlevé verdi, blu e rossi trasparenti e bianco opaco, con setti dorati a koftgari e inframmezzati da piccoli diamanti, smeraldi e qualche rubino a taglio irregolare (alcuni spezzati dall’origine) in castoni d’oro. L’impugnatura, molto lunga, ha la base a profilo di campana segnata da foglie discendenti e delimitata da una modanatura, poi si fa affusolata e un po’ curva, coperta da un motivo a squame in smalto, ogni squama contenente una gemma come già descritto, e termina con tre teste crestate di Naga in funzione di pomo, fissate con una vite passante. Guardia molto larga, traforata e smaltata a foglie lanceolate e grappoli. Sul fodero, d’identico lavoro, è raffigurato un viluppo di foglie e piccoli fiori, tra i quali si distinguono una conchiglia, un vaso e lo stemma del Siam (di rosso all’elefante bianco a tre teste) affiancato da due parasole a sette piani e cimato dalla corona siamese raggiante; al rovescio sono rappresentati una sorta di labirinto sovrastato da una corona (?), un bufalo ingualdrappato, un bastone di comando (?) e una ruota fiammeggiante; il piccolissimo puntale si è perduto.

Misure: arma: mm 822 x 120; g 760; lama mm 615 x 26; fodero mm 665 x 37, g 570

LETT. DONDI CARTESEGNA 1982, n. 377; DONDI 1995, tav. in copertina e passim

CFR.: FOSSATI DONDI 1981, n. 1174; DONDI 1998

Le dha, spade tradizionali di tutta l’area indocinese (cfr. le schede G.356 e T.40), hanno impugnatura molto lunga ma non posseggono quasi mai elsa né guardia. La linea dell’arma in esame mostra, invece, l’introdursi degli usi occidentali in quei Paesi (un fenomeno analogo alla stessa epoca si verifica anche altrove, in particolare in Giappone), con l’assunzione di un modello generale che è la sciabola, arma militare divenuta anche di rappresentanza in tutto l’Occidente a partire dall’Ottocento, interpretata però secondo i canoni locali, con l’impugnatura molto lunga ad attacco allargato che, per l’occhio occidentale, crea una sproporzione tra gli elementi. La lama ha una forma che non può dirsi né occidentale né orientale, ma la decorazione di essa (tolto il traforo) applica tecniche e temi classici: il koftgari, anche se non raffinatissimo, è di uso antico, mentre il motivo a tralcio con fogliette è comunissimo nella decorazione del ferro, sia semplicemente inciso, sia ageminato in argento o (di rado) in oro; del pari tipico è il motivo in un contorno trapezio al tallone. Insolito, anche se non unico, è l’uso dello smalto, mentre i temi raffigurati sono in parte classici, come il Naga, serpente mitico, in parte assunti secondo l’uso occidentale, come lo stemma dello Stato. È arma sontuosissima, e si deve ritenere che questo sia lo stile adottato dal Siam nel tardo Ottocento per le armi da presentazione, almeno nei confronti di personalità occidentali. Il Museo Siamese di Cagliari possiede un’arma (inv. n. 1174) meno ricca, ma del medesimo stile.
Rama V (Chulalongkorn) regnò dal 1868 al 1910 e, seguendo la strada segnata dal padre, Rama IV (Mongkut), ampliò l’apertura e la modernizzazione del Paese, attuando riforme e stipulando ulteriori trattati con numerosi Stati. Il Siam deve a questi due sovrani se non divenne, come gli altri Stati all’intorno, una colonia occidentale. A rinsaldare i legami con l’Italia nel 1881 era giunto in visita Tomaso di Savoia, duca di Genova, che fu accolto magnificamente (una lancia con ferro decorato in oro e asta d’argento, donatagli in quell’occasione, si conserva nel castello di Agliè, presso Torino, già di proprietà dei duchi di Genova). In seguito la presenza italiana nel Siam divenne numerosa e importante. Architetti, pittori e scultori italiani (non pochi di Torino) furono attivi a Bangkok, interpretando con grande acutezza e sensibilità lo spirito di quel Paese, e a loro si devono molti edifici e altre opere che tuttora vi si ammirano (cfr. Ferri de Lazara e Piazzardi, Italiani alla Corte del Siam, TCI, 1997). Di speciale importanza, poi, fu la presenza del maggiore Gerolamo Emilio Gerini (1860-1913), istruttore della Guardia Reale e creatore della Scuola militare, autore di manuali militari in lingua siamese, ma soprattutto studioso instancabile e scrittore prolifico di opere sulla storia e le tradizioni del Paese, stimatissimo dal sovrano che gli affidò numerosi incarichi d’importanza.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Ian

B.I.

Good idea. If you scan the Italian text I'm sure someone will be able to translate it. Put it up and see who steps forward.

Ian.

I'll get right on that. I remember visiting the Armoria Reale has a youngster, but it was before my all-consuming passion for swords, and dha in particular, developed, so I don't remember much except for the katana. I have wanted to get back there for several years, and often wondered what they had in the way of dha. Maybe next spring. I used to live over the hills east of Torino, in a little town called Pecetto.

BTW, the Thai saber is a "krabi," and is more likely inspired by a European saber that the Vietnamese, IMO. I think they both developed more-or-less contemporaneously.

[M.carter]

Originally Posted by Aqtai

Beautiful swords Brian. I feel the decoration on the straight sword has more of an Iranian feel to it. I couldn't see it very clearly, but is that a simurgh beneath the hilt?

I think you know what's coming next.

I believe the museum also has a very small number of beautiful Turkish or Iranian armours, which I have only ever seen as very poor quality black and white photos. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of them by any chance?

After some reading, it seems to me that the straight sword is almost a copy of Plate.16 in "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths". Even the gold inlay is similar.

[Aqtai]

Thanks B.I., much appreciated.

Lovely piece of armour with some interesting features. The small plates on the shoulders, laminated vambraces (similar to the ones on the complete Turkish armour in the Metropolitan), rather than the more usual bazu bands, and laminated lower leg defences as well, the word 'greave' just doesn't seem right somehow. I'm guessing from the style of the helmet that the armour is Ottoman?

M. Carter, I've just had a look at the sword you were referring to. Very similar, although not identical. It does have downward curved quillons and a simurgh on the upper part of the blade. The Topqapi sword is one of the "Blessed swords", the holy relics attributed to the Prophet and his companions. I think that unless the sword was redecorated later, the style of the inlay sort of rules out a date that early.

The sword in plate 21 of ISAS is also similar, I'm almost wondering if B.I.'s sword from the Armeria Reale and the 2 in the Topkapi are a particular sub-type of Islamic sword...

B.I., since this is your thread, is it OK if I post scans of the Topkapi swords for comparison? Also is there a date and provenance on the straight sword with the gold inlay?

[B.I]

hi aqtai,
the armour is indeed ottoman and their are many varieties in style of the armour of the period. its because of this that a few of the mannequins in the stibbert have armguards placed on the legs, as the thought then was that the arguards were not of the 'solid' plate type, but rather the small 'lamelar' plates.
although i started this post, its down to anyone participating ot steer it whichever way they want. however, there are a few examples of this early sword blade (which is of a well known type), normally rehilted in the 16th/17thC. poland (especially wavel) has a few, with its strong links with the turks. maybe this sword deserves a post on its own, as i'm sure michal (and i) can show other examples outside istanbul. i have quite a few more images from this museum so if you start a post on this particular sword, we can do it more justice.
there is a stunning example in a private collection, that has never been published and if i ever manage to get an image, i will gladly post it.

[B.I]

another dha