unknown naski inscripted malchus blade?

cornelistromp · 18th March 2009, 11:38 PM

intersting malchus blade with some kind of naski arab inscription.
does somebody know what it means?

The reverse side is definitely a group of nine numbers?!?!

257? 2572 2582
2581 2578 2576
257? 2583 2577

Not sure what that means. Perhaps an ancient code of some sorts.

can somebody help me with this puzle? Alexandria??? 13-14thC???

Norman McCormick · 19th March 2009, 09:43 PM

Hi Cornelis?
Not sure what the references to Malchus, Biblical or historical, and Naski are. The blade looks S.E.Asian, big area I admit, the numbers appear to be a 'magic square' and the lettering Arabic script. Some or all of the aforementioned may be incorrect, I expect the experienced members will give a more definitive answer if indeed there be one.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2009, 11:28 PM

Hello Cornelistromp,
First of all I'd like to welcome you here, and thank you for your great response on the Dutch knife!

The blade here appears to be an Arab blade, probably of 18th-19th century. Excellent note by Norman on the 'magic squares', which were talismanic groupings in numbers or letters found on Islamic swords usually at or near the forte of the blade.
There seems to be distinct variation in the numerology, as well as the calligraphy, of which nasta'liq is one. This script is a Persian form, which would have been highly favored in Arabia. I am no linquist nor particularly knowledgable on these weapons, but I do know these talismanic squares are typically termed 'Bedouh'. The meaning of the term is inclear, but naturally the inclination toward the Bedouin tribes of Arabia is tempting.

The Ottomans occuped Arabia and during these times, the nasta'liq used in writing Ottoman Turkish was termed 'Talik'. There was also Diwani script developed for writing Ottoman Turkish during about 16-17th c.

I think this should be posted on the Ethnographic Forum, where the true experts on these swords reside, and I'm not sure how this is transferred over, but I wanted to let you know where it is being moved for better response.

Fascinating blade though!!!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2009, 04:19 AM

After discovering this blade posted on another forum, I realized that I did not scroll far enough to the left, revealing the distinctly profiled tip on this blade.
Now having the 'big picture' it would appear that this is not the double fullered sabre blade I had anticipated, and likely does have possible Indonesian or SE Asian origins, but probably of the period I mentioned.

It should be noted that much of Indonesian regions are predominantly Muslim, with profound history that includes the Arab trade routes. The use of these type blade markings are found accordingly, and the 'magic square' comments apply as well.

I find the 'malchus' description most curious, and can only imagine it must be used in the Biblical parlance, which again, Norman has most astutely noted, and describes the event described in the Gospels where a sword is used in severing the ear of an individual named Malchus. Although I am not aware of any sword type called by this name, I am sure it has been used in literary metaphor.

Interesting note on Alexandria as well, as there were a number of European swords captured in the crusades (clearly much before this blade) and taken as trophies to the arsenal at Alexandria. A number of these were marked in Arabic calligraphy on the blades noting them as such, and an article describing them was written in Israel in 1962 (I am not near my notes and cannot recall offhand the cite), but I do not think the squares were used. Again, would have to review the notes.
Well placed perspective though ,noting those characteristics!

Best regards,
Jim

P.S. Beautifully done Norman!!!

imagine my chagrin!, excellent assessments by you on all counts. I didnt realize that much of my screen was cut off.....after all ...my PC is a Fisher-Price!!!

cornelistromp · 21st March 2009, 03:39 PM

thank you all for the expert-comments,I noticed with pleasure that the level of knowledge in arms and armour is very high.
It is very convenient that I can consult this forum whenever Iam stuck on a case which more then once happens.

Re: origin
it is obvious that this type of blade has an oriental origin however Indonesian origin is not very likely because the weapons of this archipel don't have western types of ricasso like this blade has.
At the moment a friend of me is working on the translation and dating of the Naskhi script (Naskhi or close relative). Hope that the outcome will clearify more/all.

Re:dating
personally I think it can be older then 17thC or 18thC
- there was a "flint hard" layer of Goethite (feOoh) covering the blade.
This (evidence) has been recenlty removed for 90%.
such a layer is often found on medieval waterfinds. this proces of rust interacting with the chemical constituents of the surrounding mud ,is not possible in 200 or 300 years.
- the Naskhi script evolved from 1100ad in innumerable varieties and styles.
the first indication is that this style can be dated before 1600 but is under investigation at the moment. I hope the script will give more outcome.

Re: Malchus sword classification
Heribert Seitz Author of Blankwaffen
(one of the most important publications about the developements of types
of arms in Europe till 1600.) has classified "single edged swords" from the group MALCHUS-FALCHION-STORTA into two types in 1964;

MALCHUS type1 oriental origin (fa the Thorpe Falchion, Oakeshott 1960)

MALCHUS type2 north-west european Origin.(fa Conyers falchion)

(H.Seitz Blankwaffen p187-194. 1965)

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2009, 04:37 PM

Thank you so much for revealing all of this extremely helpful data Cornelistromp! It would appear that you are quite knowledgable as well. We often have 'translation' queries on the Ethnographic Forum, which is our main forum, and which is the forum I had earlier suggested. Obviously, here on the European Forum, the few such queries wouldn't usually include Arabic dialects (with the exception probably of the Alexandria swords

).

It is times like these when I realize how important it is to have diverse and comprehensive resources in an arms library! The Seitz reference is outstanding as I recall, but presently do not have access to it, so I am grateful for the categorization you refer to using the term 'malchus'. I am of course familiar with the Conyers and Thorpe falchion references, which indeed present entirely different potential for this blades identification.

I feel as though I've been skipping up and down the garden path, wondering what was rustling in the bushes, but now that I can see it, it is less of a puzzle.....but obviously not that much less! At least I know better where to look though.

Excellent point on the heavy ricasso, and that remains a sound observation. Since you have referenced Goethite factor, it begs the question...was this an archaeological find, and if so, obviously where in location. If it was in a location situated in regions associated with any of the crusades, than the placement here with the European Forum seems well warranted, and the focus on this blade becomes increasingly intriguing.

I'll have to learn more on the Nashki script, which I have heard of, but know little about and maybe I can implore some of our linguists to take a look at this. Perhaps they might not only translate, but add more on the use of this type script.

I also am determined to learn more on the use of the term 'malchus' as used by Seitz in his classification of falchions. It seems that it is a term not especially widely used as it does not readily appear in most references, but really does have my curiosity going!

I am more than delighted that this blade seems to be far more than my original assessment, and regret not having withheld same until I had more thoroughly reviewed the illustrations. Had I realized the complexity implied, I would have definitely looked further into available resources for information.

Thank you much for sharing this fascinating blade here, and giving us the opportunity not only to discuss, but learn from this interesting piece.

All the very best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th March 2012, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

intersting malchus blade with some kind of naski arab inscription.
does somebody know what it means?

The reverse side is definitely a group of nine numbers?!?!

257? 2572 2582
2581 2578 2576
257? 2583 2577

Not sure what that means. Perhaps an ancient code of some sorts.

can somebody help me with this puzle? Alexandria??? 13-14thC???

Salaams cornelistromp ~ The numbers as stated are a talismanic sort of "rune" or spell protecting the sword owner from various Djinns and other demons. They probably reveal a sequence and code typical in Arabian talismanic beliefs... etc. Sometimes all you see is a set of criss crossing rectangles with no letters or numbers though in this case it is very clear and precise.
For Malchus and Falchion there is a brilliant thread by Swordfish on this Forum at The Falchion or Malchus the rarest medieval sword which is a must see for comparisons. It needs a bump ! Standby !!!
The dots are intriguing and they seem to have an eyebrow strike above .... This is a most peculiar backblade that seems to say far east with islamic detail and at the same time Malchus possibly crusader weapon? Any clues please where it was discovered or sourced could point us in a certain direction ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

cornelistromp · 8th March 2012, 07:51 PM

HI Ibrahiim al Balooshi,

Unfortunately I do not know where the sword has been found, but this blade has always intrigued me, inlaid with gold dots and strange naskhi script with a deep meaning.
The blade has been severly cleaned but there are still remnants of flint hard goethide. This layer of goethide proofs that it must have been a waterfound but also that it must be old, I think it is 14thC.

at another forum, sorry

, somebody of Baghrain made out following;
Originally Posted by e.a.Zainal

Numbers are

2579 2572 2582
2581 2578 2576
2579 2583 2577

i think it's like a magical numbers that help the user for some think like a magic script

اللهم لاذة الله
عين سبيق ودت الله

Oh God that Take you to the God
An eye faster than Kindness of God

that what i understand from the Writing
but the Second line I'm not sour about it

it may my translatiuon is meaning defrint that what it mean becuse the Scipt Mening is very deep

The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword is a beautiful thread, there is a illustration posted with apparently a similar dot inlay.

best,

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2012, 04:08 AM

Thanks very much Jasper for adding that information ! I was puzzled why the thread ended so abruptly if I recall correctly, but it was three years ago and I hadn't thought of it until I saw the great new 'malchus' thread.
Ibrahiim, that you so much for the excellent suggestions on these talismanic 'runes' which seem to be in accord with the 'beduh' type squares on many Islamic swords.

All best regards,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 9th March 2012, 04:27 PM

Imho, I think this is a south east asian item. The Arabic on it reminds me of an indonesian sword I translated for Gene a while ago..

nothing conclusive though

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th March 2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

HI Ibrahiim al Balooshi,

Unfortunately I do not know where the sword has been found, but this blade has always intrigued me, inlaid with gold dots and strange naskhi script with a deep meaning.
The blade has been severly cleaned but there are still remnants of flint hard goethide. This layer of goethide proofs that it must have been a waterfound but also that it must be old, I think it is 14thC.

at another forum, sorry

, somebody of Baghrain made out following;
Originally Posted by e.a.Zainal

Numbers are

2579 2572 2582
2581 2578 2576
2579 2583 2577

i think it's like a magical numbers that help the user for some think like a magic script

اللهم لاذة الله
عين سبيق ودت الله

Oh God that Take you to the God
An eye faster than Kindness of God

that what i understand from the Writing
but the Second line I'm not sour about it

it may my translatiuon is meaning defrint that what it mean becuse the Scipt Mening is very deep

The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword is a beautiful thread, there is a illustration posted with apparently a similar dot inlay.

best,

Salaams Cornelistromp ~ great detail and thanks again ~ And regards Jim and Im sure this one will have the lights burning bright at your end far into the night... A brilliant conundrum ! I think the dots on the blade may be a strong indicator as to origin unless anyone has evidence of this style of decoration on far eastern blades...? I see the Malchus in this blade...

For students of European blades the Falchion and Malchus have to be the most interesting start point on study leading through from the Medieaval to the modern era. What is astonishing is the quality of illuminated detail in manuscript form ... If this is a Malchus what is the detective work on the arabic inscriptions and as I dive into my library looking for Heraldic symbols et al it is a very interesting subject worthy of university study...I wish I had the resources as Professor Jim has.

I am endebted to corneilstromp for the exacting scientific detail and chemical analysis on the blade surface which is a totally new area to me. Thank you !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th March 2012, 06:33 PM

broadaxe · 9th March 2012, 11:22 PM

Sorry, it looks exactly like a mandau blade to me. I had the chance of holding dozens of them at Oriental-Arms. The golden dot work is typical and the scale pattern appears to be of severe thermic damage.

cornelistromp · 10th March 2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Sorry, it looks exactly like a mandau blade to me. I had the chance of holding dozens of them at Oriental-Arms. The golden dot work is typical and the scale pattern appears to be of severe thermic damage.

yes on behalf of the outline, my first impression was also directed towards the dayak head hunter swords.
also because some of them have inlays with larger dots or stars.(kalimantan)

of this track, I passed off, I mean
can you please post a picture of a Mandau like the blade under discussion, with a western type of ricasso and with double fullers?

best,

18th March 2009, 11:38 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	unknown naski inscripted malchus blade? intersting malchus blade with some kind of naski arab inscription. does somebody know what it means? The reverse side is definitely a group of nine numbers?!?! 257? 2572 2582 2581 2578 2576 257? 2583 2577 Not sure what that means. Perhaps an ancient code of some sorts. can somebody help me with this puzle? Alexandria??? 13-14thC??? Attached Images

8th March 2012, 07:51 PM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	HI Ibrahiim al Balooshi, Unfortunately I do not know where the sword has been found, but this blade has always intrigued me, inlaid with gold dots and strange naskhi script with a deep meaning. The blade has been severly cleaned but there are still remnants of flint hard goethide. This layer of goethide proofs that it must have been a waterfound but also that it must be old, I think it is 14thC. at another forum, sorry , somebody of Baghrain made out following; Originally Posted by e.a.Zainal Numbers are 2579 2572 2582 2581 2578 2576 2579 2583 2577 i think it's like a magical numbers that help the user for some think like a magic script اللهم لاذة الله عين سبيق ودت الله Oh God that Take you to the God An eye faster than Kindness of God that what i understand from the Writing but the Second line I'm not sour about it it may my translatiuon is meaning defrint that what it mean becuse the Scipt Mening is very deep The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword is a beautiful thread, there is a illustration posted with apparently a similar dot inlay. best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 9th March 2012 at 08:19 AM.

19th March 2009, 09:43 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Cornelis? Not sure what the references to Malchus, Biblical or historical, and Naski are. The blade looks S.E.Asian, big area I admit, the numbers appear to be a 'magic square' and the lettering Arabic script. Some or all of the aforementioned may be incorrect, I expect the experienced members will give a more definitive answer if indeed there be one. Regards, Norman.

19th March 2009, 11:28 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hello Cornelistromp, First of all I'd like to welcome you here, and thank you for your great response on the Dutch knife! The blade here appears to be an Arab blade, probably of 18th-19th century. Excellent note by Norman on the 'magic squares', which were talismanic groupings in numbers or letters found on Islamic swords usually at or near the forte of the blade. There seems to be distinct variation in the numerology, as well as the calligraphy, of which nasta'liq is one. This script is a Persian form, which would have been highly favored in Arabia. I am no linquist nor particularly knowledgable on these weapons, but I do know these talismanic squares are typically termed 'Bedouh'. The meaning of the term is inclear, but naturally the inclination toward the Bedouin tribes of Arabia is tempting. The Ottomans occuped Arabia and during these times, the nasta'liq used in writing Ottoman Turkish was termed 'Talik'. There was also Diwani script developed for writing Ottoman Turkish during about 16-17th c. I think this should be posted on the Ethnographic Forum, where the true experts on these swords reside, and I'm not sure how this is transferred over, but I wanted to let you know where it is being moved for better response. Fascinating blade though!!! All best regards, Jim

21st March 2009, 04:19 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	After discovering this blade posted on another forum, I realized that I did not scroll far enough to the left, revealing the distinctly profiled tip on this blade. Now having the 'big picture' it would appear that this is not the double fullered sabre blade I had anticipated, and likely does have possible Indonesian or SE Asian origins, but probably of the period I mentioned. It should be noted that much of Indonesian regions are predominantly Muslim, with profound history that includes the Arab trade routes. The use of these type blade markings are found accordingly, and the 'magic square' comments apply as well. I find the 'malchus' description most curious, and can only imagine it must be used in the Biblical parlance, which again, Norman has most astutely noted, and describes the event described in the Gospels where a sword is used in severing the ear of an individual named Malchus. Although I am not aware of any sword type called by this name, I am sure it has been used in literary metaphor. Interesting note on Alexandria as well, as there were a number of European swords captured in the crusades (clearly much before this blade) and taken as trophies to the arsenal at Alexandria. A number of these were marked in Arabic calligraphy on the blades noting them as such, and an article describing them was written in Israel in 1962 (I am not near my notes and cannot recall offhand the cite), but I do not think the squares were used. Again, would have to review the notes. Well placed perspective though ,noting those characteristics! Best regards, Jim P.S. Beautifully done Norman!!! imagine my chagrin!, excellent assessments by you on all counts. I didnt realize that much of my screen was cut off.....after all ...my PC is a Fisher-Price!!!

21st March 2009, 03:39 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	thank you all for the expert-comments,I noticed with pleasure that the level of knowledge in arms and armour is very high. It is very convenient that I can consult this forum whenever Iam stuck on a case which more then once happens. Re: origin it is obvious that this type of blade has an oriental origin however Indonesian origin is not very likely because the weapons of this archipel don't have western types of ricasso like this blade has. At the moment a friend of me is working on the translation and dating of the Naskhi script (Naskhi or close relative). Hope that the outcome will clearify more/all. Re:dating personally I think it can be older then 17thC or 18thC - there was a "flint hard" layer of Goethite (feOoh) covering the blade. This (evidence) has been recenlty removed for 90%. such a layer is often found on medieval waterfinds. this proces of rust interacting with the chemical constituents of the surrounding mud ,is not possible in 200 or 300 years. - the Naskhi script evolved from 1100ad in innumerable varieties and styles. the first indication is that this style can be dated before 1600 but is under investigation at the moment. I hope the script will give more outcome. Re: Malchus sword classification Heribert Seitz Author of Blankwaffen (one of the most important publications about the developements of types of arms in Europe till 1600.) has classified "single edged swords" from the group MALCHUS-FALCHION-STORTA into two types in 1964; MALCHUS type1 oriental origin (fa the Thorpe Falchion, Oakeshott 1960) MALCHUS type2 north-west european Origin.(fa Conyers falchion) (H.Seitz Blankwaffen p187-194. 1965)

21st March 2009, 04:37 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Thank you so much for revealing all of this extremely helpful data Cornelistromp! It would appear that you are quite knowledgable as well. We often have 'translation' queries on the Ethnographic Forum, which is our main forum, and which is the forum I had earlier suggested. Obviously, here on the European Forum, the few such queries wouldn't usually include Arabic dialects (with the exception probably of the Alexandria swords ). It is times like these when I realize how important it is to have diverse and comprehensive resources in an arms library! The Seitz reference is outstanding as I recall, but presently do not have access to it, so I am grateful for the categorization you refer to using the term 'malchus'. I am of course familiar with the Conyers and Thorpe falchion references, which indeed present entirely different potential for this blades identification. I feel as though I've been skipping up and down the garden path, wondering what was rustling in the bushes, but now that I can see it, it is less of a puzzle.....but obviously not that much less! At least I know better where to look though. Excellent point on the heavy ricasso, and that remains a sound observation. Since you have referenced Goethite factor, it begs the question...was this an archaeological find, and if so, obviously where in location. If it was in a location situated in regions associated with any of the crusades, than the placement here with the European Forum seems well warranted, and the focus on this blade becomes increasingly intriguing. I'll have to learn more on the Nashki script, which I have heard of, but know little about and maybe I can implore some of our linguists to take a look at this. Perhaps they might not only translate, but add more on the use of this type script. I also am determined to learn more on the use of the term 'malchus' as used by Seitz in his classification of falchions. It seems that it is a term not especially widely used as it does not readily appear in most references, but really does have my curiosity going! I am more than delighted that this blade seems to be far more than my original assessment, and regret not having withheld same until I had more thoroughly reviewed the illustrations. Had I realized the complexity implied, I would have definitely looked further into available resources for information. Thank you much for sharing this fascinating blade here, and giving us the opportunity not only to discuss, but learn from this interesting piece. All the very best, Jim

9th March 2012, 04:08 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Thanks very much Jasper for adding that information ! I was puzzled why the thread ended so abruptly if I recall correctly, but it was three years ago and I hadn't thought of it until I saw the great new 'malchus' thread. Ibrahiim, that you so much for the excellent suggestions on these talismanic 'runes' which seem to be in accord with the 'beduh' type squares on many Islamic swords. All best regards, Jim

9th March 2012, 04:27 PM	#10
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Imho, I think this is a south east asian item. The Arabic on it reminds me of an indonesian sword I translated for Gene a while ago.. nothing conclusive though

9th March 2012, 06:33 PM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408

9th March 2012, 11:22 PM	#13
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Sorry, it looks exactly like a mandau blade to me. I had the chance of holding dozens of them at Oriental-Arms. The golden dot work is typical and the scale pattern appears to be of severe thermic damage.