Strange Mendak on Yogyakarta Keris

Athanase · 9th July 2017, 04:54 PM

Hello

Here is one of my new Kriss (My First with a Yogyakarta hilt).
The blade measures 37cm long (9.5cm wide for the Gonjo).
Unfortunately there is no scabbard.

The brass mendak/selut? is of very unusual shape and with very poor finishes.

This is very strange as it looks old, but its quality is worse than the blade and handle.

Marcokeris · 9th July 2017, 06:12 PM

Nice keris but the mendak (selut) is wrong.... better to change it

David · 9th July 2017, 07:10 PM

I agree. I frankly couldn't tell you what this is for, but i don't think it is at all correct for this keris.

Athanase · 9th July 2017, 07:34 PM

This mendak is very badly proportioned for this Keris, but since it seemed a bit old I preferred to ask before changing.

David · 9th July 2017, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

This mendak is very badly proportioned for this Keris, but since it seemed a bit old I preferred to ask before changing.

I'd say even worse than the problem of proportion is that it does not seem to be culturally Javanese. I am not sure what area of keris culture it actually originates from, but i don't think it is Javanese.

Royston · 11th July 2017, 07:04 PM

Looks a bit like a small brass drawwer handle that has been trimmed down and had a few decorations bashed into it.

Jean · 18th July 2017, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

Hello

Here is one of my new Kriss (My First with a Yogyakarta hilt).
The blade measures 37cm long (9.5cm wide for the Gonjo).
Unfortunately there is no scabbard.

The brass mendak/selut? is of very unusual shape and with very poor finishes.

This is very strange as it looks old, but its quality is worse than the blade and handle.

On the top right and below pics with the grey background, it appears clearly that the tikel alis was very poorly carved (added later?) and it has affected the outline of the front sogokan. I am also of the opinion that this blade was modified by somebody much less skilled than the original maker.
Regards

David · 18th July 2017, 08:10 PM

Well gentlemen, i would not necessarily argue with anything said here, which seems to be quite a bit of i don't know. Alan, you know quite a bit more than most of us on these matters, but i, for the life of me, would never be able to make any definitive statements on the greneng from these photos, even when i attempt to blow them up on my screen. So more power to you. Except that just about everything you do have to say about this keris comes back to the fact that you would still have to handle it personally to really know more, which is pretty much what i said. What we have is a keris that may have had later work done on it by a lesser skilled craftsman for reasons unknown. It certainly isn't the kind of extravagant yet haphazard work done by unscrupulous dealers to raise the salability of a keris by adding all kinds of previously absent features. Seems more to be work done on already present features. Perhaps there was damage that simply needed to be repaired. Maybe it looks better now, maybe it looks worse. We will never know. All i can say is that i would have been quite pleased if my very first keris looked this good in spite of all its inconsistencies. I personally have never been able to afford "perfect".

David · 18th July 2017, 08:24 PM

Thanks Athanase, those are definitely better photos which may or may not attract a new round of speculation.
I still see some problems with the sogokan in these new shots of course. I can also certainly see the greneng better in these latest pictures though i will leave any judgement of that to others.
Curious that someone would take the take to make possible adjustments to the kembang kacang, greneng, tikel alis and sogokan and then leave the edge of the blade all raggedy like that. You would think if they were going to do all that other work they would "fix" the edge as well.

I still like this keris despite its blemishes and foibles.

A. G. Maisey · 19th July 2017, 12:39 AM

Thank you Athanase for these new photographs.

We now have material that in my opinion has turned this thread into perhaps one of the most valuable threads in recent times.

Firstly, let me say this:-

WRONG WRONG WRONG:- MAISEY WAS WRONG

These new photos permit me to form a much better, and much more accurate opinion of the keris. David opined that we needed better photos, I should have listened to him, he's a pro, I'm not. I thought I could see enough to make legitimate comment from the original fotos. I was wrong.

So now I'll start again.

This is definitely an old blade, it has not been altered, added to nor detracted from in any way, however, the level of craftsmanship is somewhat less than good.

My comments in my previous post were incorrect in many respects, and this is one of the things that makes this a valuable thread:- we all need very good photographs to give any idea at all of what we are looking at. I thought I could see sufficient from the original photos : I could not.

In these new pics I can see exactly the degree of erosion that I would expect on an old blade, if we look at the erosion on the blade edges we can see that from the 4th luk to the point the edges are ragged. This tells us that the blade has been hardened from the point to the mid-point of the 4th luk, proof positive of age. Very, very few current era blades are ever hardened, and the form of erosion on this blade indicates natural erosion, not forced erosion.

The sogokan is now much more clear. It is not well done, but it is correctly done, the poyuhan was correctly sculpted, and loss of form can be put down to age.

The tikel alis:- clean, clear well formed, original.

The gandhik is very well sculpted, but at the expense of stealing material from the kembang kacang, which would have been rather slight, even when new.

The greneng is the big surprise to me:- it is correctly cut, the man who cut it knew what he was doing, but his level of knowledge was at pandai level, not mpu level. He has cut correct Mataram rondha, but has cut them poorly, and the complete greneng says less than it should. It was a major error on my part to try to read the greneng from the original pics.

Taking everything into consideration, I am inclined to give this keris as HB (yaitu Hamengkubuwana, atau Yogya).

Overall, it is a nice old keris.

I've learned a good lesson from this, and I hope we have all learned that decent photos can make a world of difference in an opinion.

ATHANASE
Re your photo difficulties.
If you have north facing windows looking out onto trees, and you are in the Northern Hemisphere --- which of course you are --- you are in an ideal situation to take very good keris or other photos.
I'm not a pro, as is David, but I have been taking keris photos for a very long time. I'm in the Southern Hemisphere and my situation is exactly similar to yours:- south facing windows looking out onto trees.
My suggestions to you would be to shoot from a tripod, use remote release, use a neutral backcloth, use bounce boards (three ply faced with aluminium foil) to throw light onto your subject. In processing you will probably always find that the image will improve by removing cyan. Sharpen. Never use a flash. To me, these are the essentials, anything else can be an extra.

Athanase · 28th March 2023, 11:14 PM

Hello,

I am digging up this old thread because while leafing through the catalog of the Charle Buttin collection I realized that the Keris of this thread is perhaps the n°858 of the Charle Buttin collection.
The dapur and the lengh of the blade (37cm) is the same and the very strange mendak/selut seems to be identical.

What do you think ?

9th July 2017, 04:54 PM	#1
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Strange Mendak on Yogyakarta Keris Hello Here is one of my new Kriss (My First with a Yogyakarta hilt). The blade measures 37cm long (9.5cm wide for the Gonjo). Unfortunately there is no scabbard. The brass mendak/selut? is of very unusual shape and with very poor finishes. This is very strange as it looks old, but its quality is worse than the blade and handle. Attached Images

28th March 2023, 11:14 PM	#11
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Hello, I am digging up this old thread because while leafing through the catalog of the Charle Buttin collection I realized that the Keris of this thread is perhaps the n°858 of the Charle Buttin collection. The dapur and the lengh of the blade (37cm) is the same and the very strange mendak/selut seems to be identical. What do you think ? Attached Images

9th July 2017, 06:12 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Nice keris but the mendak (selut) is wrong.... better to change it

9th July 2017, 07:10 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	I agree. I frankly couldn't tell you what this is for, but i don't think it is at all correct for this keris.

9th July 2017, 07:34 PM	#4
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	This mendak is very badly proportioned for this Keris, but since it seemed a bit old I preferred to ask before changing.

11th July 2017, 07:04 PM	#6
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Looks a bit like a small brass drawwer handle that has been trimmed down and had a few decorations bashed into it.

18th July 2017, 08:10 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Well gentlemen, i would not necessarily argue with anything said here, which seems to be quite a bit of i don't know. Alan, you know quite a bit more than most of us on these matters, but i, for the life of me, would never be able to make any definitive statements on the greneng from these photos, even when i attempt to blow them up on my screen. So more power to you. Except that just about everything you do have to say about this keris comes back to the fact that you would still have to handle it personally to really know more, which is pretty much what i said. What we have is a keris that may have had later work done on it by a lesser skilled craftsman for reasons unknown. It certainly isn't the kind of extravagant yet haphazard work done by unscrupulous dealers to raise the salability of a keris by adding all kinds of previously absent features. Seems more to be work done on already present features. Perhaps there was damage that simply needed to be repaired. Maybe it looks better now, maybe it looks worse. We will never know. All i can say is that i would have been quite pleased if my very first keris looked this good in spite of all its inconsistencies. I personally have never been able to afford "perfect".

18th July 2017, 08:24 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Thanks Athanase, those are definitely better photos which may or may not attract a new round of speculation. I still see some problems with the sogokan in these new shots of course. I can also certainly see the greneng better in these latest pictures though i will leave any judgement of that to others. Curious that someone would take the take to make possible adjustments to the kembang kacang, greneng, tikel alis and sogokan and then leave the edge of the blade all raggedy like that. You would think if they were going to do all that other work they would "fix" the edge as well. I still like this keris despite its blemishes and foibles.

19th July 2017, 12:39 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,894	Thank you Athanase for these new photographs. We now have material that in my opinion has turned this thread into perhaps one of the most valuable threads in recent times. Firstly, let me say this:- WRONG WRONG WRONG:- MAISEY WAS WRONG These new photos permit me to form a much better, and much more accurate opinion of the keris. David opined that we needed better photos, I should have listened to him, he's a pro, I'm not. I thought I could see enough to make legitimate comment from the original fotos. I was wrong. So now I'll start again. This is definitely an old blade, it has not been altered, added to nor detracted from in any way, however, the level of craftsmanship is somewhat less than good. My comments in my previous post were incorrect in many respects, and this is one of the things that makes this a valuable thread:- we all need very good photographs to give any idea at all of what we are looking at. I thought I could see sufficient from the original photos : I could not. In these new pics I can see exactly the degree of erosion that I would expect on an old blade, if we look at the erosion on the blade edges we can see that from the 4th luk to the point the edges are ragged. This tells us that the blade has been hardened from the point to the mid-point of the 4th luk, proof positive of age. Very, very few current era blades are ever hardened, and the form of erosion on this blade indicates natural erosion, not forced erosion. The sogokan is now much more clear. It is not well done, but it is correctly done, the poyuhan was correctly sculpted, and loss of form can be put down to age. The tikel alis:- clean, clear well formed, original. The gandhik is very well sculpted, but at the expense of stealing material from the kembang kacang, which would have been rather slight, even when new. The greneng is the big surprise to me:- it is correctly cut, the man who cut it knew what he was doing, but his level of knowledge was at pandai level, not mpu level. He has cut correct Mataram rondha, but has cut them poorly, and the complete greneng says less than it should. It was a major error on my part to try to read the greneng from the original pics. Taking everything into consideration, I am inclined to give this keris as HB (yaitu Hamengkubuwana, atau Yogya). Overall, it is a nice old keris. I've learned a good lesson from this, and I hope we have all learned that decent photos can make a world of difference in an opinion. ATHANASE Re your photo difficulties. If you have north facing windows looking out onto trees, and you are in the Northern Hemisphere --- which of course you are --- you are in an ideal situation to take very good keris or other photos. I'm not a pro, as is David, but I have been taking keris photos for a very long time. I'm in the Southern Hemisphere and my situation is exactly similar to yours:- south facing windows looking out onto trees. My suggestions to you would be to shoot from a tripod, use remote release, use a neutral backcloth, use bounce boards (three ply faced with aluminium foil) to throw light onto your subject. In processing you will probably always find that the image will improve by removing cyan. Sharpen. Never use a flash. To me, these are the essentials, anything else can be an extra.