Arab? Musket

[Snowman]

Good Morning all! I'm new on this forum-name in Markku Kovasin...location Finland.

I have some questions -I have a matchloc muscet I belive is from Yemen or near it. It is about 145cm long,pipe 108cm long and weight ca. 3kg.

Now I'm interesteed how old it perhaps is-and does stamp on pipe barrel means anything interesting?And of course other things if anyone can tell it...

Here some photos of it.

Can anyone help me?

Best regards...Markku

[Tim Simmons]

I know little about these but I think the metal at the end of the gun around the barrel is a recent replacement.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Markku and welcome to the Forum.
The gun you have is loosely called INDO-ARAB. It is, as you will know a matchlock action and looks in nice condition overall.
Origin could be Yemen, Arabia or even Southern India as the regions are relatively close and were for centuries connected by trade.
There are others here on the Forum who I feel sure will add to my comments and probably be able to narrow down the actual origin, and also comment on the barrel marks.
Stu

[Kubur]

Stu is right
I would even say it's an Indo Indo.
Probably Indian...

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Stu is right
I would even say it's an Indo Indo.
Probably Indian...

The stock addition is definitely Arab. These were smuggled and traded from India, to Muscat and then to Kuwait where they spread all over the gulf. I own an example similar to this one belonging to a Kuwaiti family for many generations.

[kahnjar1]

I agree with Lofty in that the butt "pad" is an Arabian feature. Your gun though (on closer inspection) seems to show better than average decoration and brass work, which would perhaps suggest stronger Indian influence than Arabian.
Attached are a couple of pics (which have done the rounds before I think) showing alternative uses for these guns. I don't believe that they have put a man in space yet
Also one showing an Arabian dance..........

[colin henshaw]

I had one of these type of guns at one time. It was matchlock with a lot of applied silver, a large wooden butt "pad" with some bone inlay. Can anyone say which parts/adornments were usually made/added in Arabia ? Presumably the basic gun was manufactured in India ??

[Snowman]

Hi!

Thank You...interesting answers.

Tim is right-this silver band is later work.

Pipe barrel seems to be damask-work.

But owerall this gun seems to be not so common?

That stamp on pipe-is it "gunsmith" mark or what?

And age of this muscet...any idea?

regards Markku

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Hi!

Pipe barrel seems to be damask-work.

But owerall this gun seems to be not so common?

That stamp on pipe-is it "gunsmith" mark or what?

And age of this muscet...any idea?

regards Markku

Look above I already answered to your questions
The barrel is probably older than the gun, 17 or 18th.
Look at the barrels of the abu fatila, the Omani matchlocks
The gun is probably from the 19th c.

[Snowman]

Here some photos more...

regards Markku

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Here some photos more...

regards Markku

Hi Bandook

I could not help but notice the wrap-around type decoration on the butt stock of your gun is almost identical to the butt stock of that duel ignition gun I posted.
Both Coorg guns.

Rick

[colin henshaw]

Giving a bit more thought to the subject, a couple of further reasons for adding the wooden butt pad could be :-

1. From memory, the matchlock I owned had a very heavy long barrel. The butt
pad would be a counterweight to the barrel when holding and firing.

2. Indian people tended to have relatively small frames (ref. tulwar hilts); the
butt pad addition would suit an Arab man with a longer reach.

Here is a rather more "high status" gun, that was in auction in Britain earlier this year, for comparison.

[Jon MB]

Hello All.
I always assumed the extensions to the butt of these guns was related to either:

1) Balance when carried (possible counterwight to barrel),
2) Reloading with the butt placed on sandy/rugged ground ,
3) Possible use as a club.

Obviously over time the original function could have been forgotten and the feature have been maintained as something traditional.

Just a thought on the topic. Nice piece Markku, have a similar one.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jon MB

Hello All.
I always assumed the extensions to the butt of these guns was related to either:

1) Balance when carried (possible counterwight to barrel),
2) Reloading with the butt placed on sandy/rugged ground ,
3) Possible use as a club.

Obviously over time the original function could have been forgotten and the feature have been maintained as something traditional.

Just a thought on the topic. Nice piece Markku, have a similar one.

#1 above is unlikely, as the barrel would be much heavier than the (added?)wooden pad.
#2 Why would a wooden pad be added to a wooden stock to avoid contamination by sand? The folds of the skin covering (often seen on these butts) would be more likely to harbor sand than a plain wooden stock.
#3 If the gun ended up being used as a club, the existing stock would be more than sufficient to knock a person out.
Certainly the original reason for the butt "pads" remains a mystery but I do not believe that the reason is any of the above ideas. Most likely as has been said in above posts, the butt is designed to "soften" the recoil, or is just a matter of taste.
Stu

[Victrix]

Yes probably to soften the recoil as the rifle butt is otherwise fairly narrow (but why convex and not concave?). In addition I notice that these rifles don’t have slings attached to them. So the buttpads may also help to prevent the butt from sliding out from under the bend of the arm when riding a horse or camel?

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Yes probably to soften the recoil as the rifle butt is otherwise fairly narrow (but why convex and not concave?). In addition I notice that these rifles don’t have slings attached to them. So the buttpads may also help to prevent the butt from sliding out from under the bend of the arm when riding a horse or camel?

Hi Victrix,
Not all Middle Eastern guns have sling attachment rings, but the subject gun and also others shown in this thread do have rings on the side for attachment of a sling or retaining strap.
Stu

[Jon MB]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

#1 above is unlikely, as the barrel would be much heavier than the (added?)wooden pad.
#2 Why would a wooden pad be added to a wooden barrel to avoid contamination by sand? The folds of the skin covering (often seen on these butts) would be more likely to harbor sand than a plain wooden stock.
#3 If the gun ended up being used as a club, the existing stock would be more than sufficient to knock a person out.
Certainly the original reason for the butt "pads" remains a mystery but I do not believe that the reason is any of the above ideas. Most likely as has been said in above posts, the butt is designed to "soften" the recoil, or is just a matter of taste.
Stu

Stu, in response to your points, (I see you have no doubt handled such pieces)
Point 1. The sizes of these additions vary. Either way the centre of balance would be shifted, which may or may not have been desired by the tribal users.
Point 2. If you look at the base of the stocks with the additions, they are often quite worn. Many examples are not fur covered.
Point 3. If you say so. Hard to know at this point.

'Taste' would here be a question of cultural norms related to weapons.

Elgood mentions absorbsion of recoil but does not elaborate, but it would be interesting to hear explanations from the tribal users of these weapons, or their decendants.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jon MB

Stu, in response to your points, (I see you have no doubt handled such pieces)
Point 1. The sizes of these additions vary. Either way the centre of balance would be shifted, which may or may not have been desired by the tribal users.
Point 2. If you look at the base of the stocks with the additions, they are often quite worn. Many examples are not fur covered.
Point 3. If you say so. Hard to know at this point.

'Taste' would here be a question of cultural norms related to weapons.

Elgood mentions absorbsion of recoil but does not elaborate, but it would be interesting to hear explanations from the tribal users of these weapons, or their decendants.

Your points may well be right, and I am not saying that you are wrong. Simply that this issue is a discussion point, from which (hopefully) a valid reason for these butt extensions will appear.
Yes I have owned in the past a couple of these guns but stupidly sold them in a weak moment
In answer to your comments, I agree that the sizes do vary BUT they are only made of wood and weigh next to nothing in comparison to the barrel. Yes some are worn but then many old gunstocks show signs of wear. I would guess that these get rougher treatment than (for instance) a European gun. As far as use as a "club" goes I certainly would not like to have one aimed at my head. As you say it's hard to tell but I would not like to be on the receiving end!
Stu

[colin henshaw]

Found this image from The National Museum of Yemen, Sana'a which might interest. Note the guns in the display case in the background...

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Found this image from The National Museum of Yemen, Sana'a which might interest. Note the guns in the display case in the background...

Great pic Colin and thanks for posting. I wonder with the troubles in Yemen if the museum is still standing!
Interesting that all the long guns shown on display appear to have the butt "extension" which perhaps suggests that the feature COULD be typical only to that region. Certainly the Omani matchlock does not have the butt extension (see pic), and to my knowledge it is the only other type of matchlock peculiar to the Arabian Peninsula.
Stu

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Found this image from The National Museum of Yemen, Sana'a which might interest. Note the guns in the display case in the background...

another one

[Kubur]

Here two photos of Ottoman matchlocks in Istanbul.
The link is very clear to me...

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Giving a bit more thought to the subject, a couple of further reasons for adding the wooden butt pad could be :-

1. From memory, the matchlock I owned had a very heavy long barrel. The butt
pad would be a counterweight to the barrel when holding and firing.

2. Indian people tended to have relatively small frames (ref. tulwar hilts); the
butt pad addition would suit an Arab man with a longer reach.

Here is a rather more "high status" gun, that was in auction in Britain earlier this year, for comparison.

Hi Colin

Item 2 you mention above is something I believe is often over-looked when studying these shoulder guns. With the exception of the thick, leather pads which would seem obvious to reduce recoil, the separate wood butt cap, whether Arab, Coorg, or even Ottoman leads me to believe you are correct. Should the gun be traded or sold, the user could change the Length of Pull (LOP) to accommodate a different shooter by just extending or shortening the butt cap. It's why I believe the Ottoman guns butt stocks were always made in two pieces.
It's also what makes these guns a bit difficult to shoot today. The LOP typically being between 11 and 12 inches. Whereas the European guns would be closer to 13 to 13.5 inches. Today's shooters average 14 inches.
And, as you mention, the grips on the tulwar swords are smaller than their European counterparts. Quite interesting.

Rick

[kahnjar1]

To add to the interesting information and discussion above, here is Elgood's take on the Indo-Arab gun, from his book Firearms of the Islamic World (in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait).
Hope you find it of interest.
Stu

[rickystl]

Thanks Stu. Most interesting. Glad I have this book.

Rick

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

To add to the interesting information and discussion above, here is Elgood's take on the Indo-Arab gun, from his book Firearms of the Islamic World (in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait).
Hope you find it of interest.
Stu

Hi Stu

You may be interested to know that the middle gun you have illustrated (no. 125) now in the Kuwait Museum, was the one once owned by me. Bought in an antique shop in Abu Dhabi and which I foolishly sold later in the UK.

Colin

[Jon MB]

Oh! And I was just about to comment on the beauty that is no. 125...

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi Stu

You may be interested to know that the middle gun you have illustrated (no. 125) now in the Kuwait Museum, was the one once owned by me. Bought in an antique shop in Abu Dhabi and which I foolishly sold later in the UK.

Colin

Glad I am not the only one to regret selling stuff

[David R]

Regarding the Arab style butt, years ago when these were often referred to as "Camel guns" I was told that they were often "tap loaded" from horse or camel back.
Tap loading is done without the use of a ramrod, powder and shot are put down the barrel and the butt then banged on the ground to force the load down to the breech. If the touch hole was large enough it would prime the pan as well, if it was a flintlock.
The large butt extension could make sense in these circumstances.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by David R

Regarding the Arab style butt, years ago when these were often referred to as "Camel guns" I was told that they were often "tap loaded" from horse or camel back.
Tap loading is done without the use of a ramrod, powder and shot are put down the barrel and the butt then banged on the ground to force the load down to the breech. If the touch hole was large enough it would prime the pan as well, if it was a flintlock.
The large butt extension could make sense in these circumstances.

That’s very interesting. I can imagine the frustration on horse/camelback when fiddling with a ramrod and dropping it to the ground. Can see why “tap loading” might be a preferred method.