EBay Syrian Sword (retitled "Question" thread)

ALEX · 16th May 2007, 02:45 PM

Just ended on E-Bay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-19TH-CEN...QQcmdZViewItem
I could not help noticing new coftgari (typical and contemporary Syrian work in my opinion). The blade is claimed to be of Damascus steel, and no close-up was provided. Sorry for asking guys: why this sword received so much attention, thus high valuation, am I missing something?

Andrew · 16th May 2007, 05:58 PM

I was troubled by the lack of blade close-up as well, but overall this struck me as an exceptional sword.

The winner is a sophisticated collector (and a member of this forum), who may comment further.

Tim Simmons · 16th May 2007, 08:54 PM

Although way beyond my pocket it does look jolly impressive. I personally cannot see any problem with the blade or its decoration. I like the scabbard and guard very much. I am bothered by the repair to the hilt. The brass/copper wire and clumsy lump of solder seem to show a recent restoration.

katana · 17th May 2007, 01:40 AM

An interesting sword...ornate but not 'over the top'. Have to agree with Tim about the wire work...it looks 'out of place'.

ALEX · 17th May 2007, 07:48 AM

My main argument was the fact that the gold coftgari and stamps look strickingly brand new. I've seen similar stamps being offered for $100 each in Damascus. The fittings obviously look old, and typical for the era. Perhaps there is something we did not see on the pictures, i.e. nice wootz pattern and/or old coftgari on the ridge of the blade.

Valjhun · 18th May 2007, 01:27 PM

Well, a textbook syrian shamshir. The koftgari does look new, but could be old. You can't say that for sure just from thoose poor photos.

josh stout · 18th May 2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Well, a textbook syrian shamshir. The koftgari does look new, but could be old. You can't say that for sure just from thoose poor photos.

I am inexperienced in looking at koftgari, and as you say the pictures are not great, but to me, one side looks older and fine, while the other looks new and a bit crude.
Josh

ariel · 19th May 2007, 03:42 AM

The koftgari looks exceptionally new for an old sword. Perhaps, just like Fiegel's swords, this one spent all its life in the armory, cleaned and oiled regularly etc.

The buyer is a very experienced collector and I respect his judgement.
Hope he will show us more of the blade and answer the inevitable questions.
Congratulations with the win and all the best!

CharlesS · 25th May 2007, 02:25 AM

This sword was a bit of a gamble on my part, but was also a well reseached one. I had asked the seller for detailed pics of what she described as the "damascus blade", and apparently she thought that meant the koftgaried areas, and the pics were not so good, primarily because of the camera.

The one thing that did strike me though was the consistant uneven darkness of the blade, making me think it was, indeed, wootz. The koftkari was never really my #1 priority; the blade composition was.

The sword arrived today, and I was pleasantly surprised. It is very good Persian wootz. I have my suspicions about the koftgari as well, but it is not as perfect as one might think from the pics. I'd say it is at 90-95%. It does not have the clumsy thickness that new Indian koftgari often has, but I must admit I am not familiar with newly made Syrian work. Whatever the story with the koftgari, it was definitely not done "yesterday" as the whole blade is covered in a thin layer of sticky dried oil that clearly has been there for some time. This leads me to believe that Ariel may well be right...this blade may have been sitting in that scabbard for a very long time. The outside fittings are clearly original, and the silver koftgari there is a very impressive 85% or so, quite unusual on such fittings. The wear to the scabbard leather is puzzling, but almost all on the "saddle" side. The leather is dry rotting, but not too badly.

The outside repairs are quite clumsy and rapidly done. This leads me to believe that the repairs were hardly "restorations", but more like "fixes" by someone not familar with a better, more asthetic, technique.

All in all I was very pleased. The sword will take a little clean up, and light polish, but has a chance to be a real keeper.

Price-wise I was actually shocked that I got it. I am sure you are all aware of the sky-rocketing nature of shamshir prices by sellers and at auction houses. Had the seller made clearer, more detailed pics of the wootz blade, I dare say I would not have had a chance.

I look forward to sharing pics of the sword with my fellow forumites as soon as I have had a chance to clean it up a little and etch the blade.

ALEX · 28th May 2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

... I was pleasantly surprised. It is very good Persian wootz. ...
...
I look forward to sharing pics of the sword with my fellow forumites as soon as I have had a chance to clean it up a little and etch the blade.

Congratulations Charles!!!

By all means, it was the risk worthy of a nice Persian wootz blade reward

And hats off for recognizing (or guessing?) it. I know it was not easy

I also noticed the dark uneven color of the blade, but based on this alone I had no clues. If/when possible, please post some close-ups of the blade... and tips on how to spot wootz without close-ups

CharlesS · 28th May 2007, 10:43 PM

Here at last are some pics after a simple etching, not a full polish. The hard part was getting all the goo and hardened oil/grease off the blade.

The blade shows a nice pattern. The koftgari is in good, but not perfect condition.

The koftgari to the fittings is in remarkable condition, as this is easily lost on most of this type.

Now the question of course is the age of the koftgari. Alex has mentioned he believes it is not original to the sword. The slightly crudish cross hatching makes me suspicious. I am not sure, but even if it is not original to the sword, it surely was not applied "yesterday" based on all the gunk I had to get off the blade.

Alex, my guessing about the blade's wootz was based much more on the pics the seller sent me, than on the listing pics. Those pics were slightly better than the listing pics. The charcoal gray blade, with clear irregularities made me suspicious. Thankfully I was right.

Any help with koftgari translation would be appreciated.

Comments and opinions are welcomed.

ALEX · 29th May 2007, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

...Now the question of course is the age of the koftgari. Alex has mentioned he believes it is not original to the sword. The slightly crudish cross hatching makes me suspicious. I am not sure, but even if it is not original to the sword, it surely was not applied "yesterday" based on all the gunk I had to get off the blade...

Charles,
The cross-hatchings do not look unusually crude and long (based on new close-ups). The reason I originally thought they're new was because I saw very similar work in Damascus, i.e. large and clear stamps, and no visible loss to gold. Now, after looking closely at your pictures, it is NOT that obvious. Next week I'll show them to my coftgari-maker friend and he'll be able to determine the age. He's quite good at it. I'll let you know.

sabertasche · 29th May 2007, 06:12 PM

BEAUTIFUL!

Greg

ariel · 30th May 2007, 12:00 AM

Charles,
I knew you would be right!
Good bet!
Congratulations!

ALEX · 20th June 2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Charles,
... I'll show them to my coftgari-maker friend and he'll be able to determine the age. He's quite good at it. I'll let you know.

Charles,
I finally have some info for you. The sword was made in Damascus and one of the local swordsmiths remembers it !!!! Moreover, he claimed it was made by his father probably in 1920s (I am talking about the fittings and coftgari of course. The blade is 18/19 cent). He showed me another of his father works, but with later Indian blade (I attach the pictures, and the coftgari and the stamp look quite similar). Now, when I told him the price you paid, he almost cried, and offered me way more. This quality of work is no longer produced in Damascus, and, if found, is very expensive. Anyway, I just wanted to share the info with you and to demonstrate that you're a clear winner with this wonderful sword. Congrats again.

25th May 2007, 02:25 AM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	This sword was a bit of a gamble on my part, but was also a well reseached one. I had asked the seller for detailed pics of what she described as the "damascus blade", and apparently she thought that meant the koftgaried areas, and the pics were not so good, primarily because of the camera. The one thing that did strike me though was the consistant uneven darkness of the blade, making me think it was, indeed, wootz. The koftkari was never really my #1 priority; the blade composition was. The sword arrived today, and I was pleasantly surprised. It is very good Persian wootz. I have my suspicions about the koftgari as well, but it is not as perfect as one might think from the pics. I'd say it is at 90-95%. It does not have the clumsy thickness that new Indian koftgari often has, but I must admit I am not familiar with newly made Syrian work. Whatever the story with the koftgari, it was definitely not done "yesterday" as the whole blade is covered in a thin layer of sticky dried oil that clearly has been there for some time. This leads me to believe that Ariel may well be right...this blade may have been sitting in that scabbard for a very long time. The outside fittings are clearly original, and the silver koftgari there is a very impressive 85% or so, quite unusual on such fittings. The wear to the scabbard leather is puzzling, but almost all on the "saddle" side. The leather is dry rotting, but not too badly. The outside repairs are quite clumsy and rapidly done. This leads me to believe that the repairs were hardly "restorations", but more like "fixes" by someone not familar with a better, more asthetic, technique. All in all I was very pleased. The sword will take a little clean up, and light polish, but has a chance to be a real keeper. Price-wise I was actually shocked that I got it. I am sure you are all aware of the sky-rocketing nature of shamshir prices by sellers and at auction houses. Had the seller made clearer, more detailed pics of the wootz blade, I dare say I would not have had a chance. I look forward to sharing pics of the sword with my fellow forumites as soon as I have had a chance to clean it up a little and etch the blade. Last edited by CharlesS; 25th May 2007 at 04:08 AM.

28th May 2007, 10:43 PM	#11
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Here at last are some pics after a simple etching, not a full polish. The hard part was getting all the goo and hardened oil/grease off the blade. The blade shows a nice pattern. The koftgari is in good, but not perfect condition. The koftgari to the fittings is in remarkable condition, as this is easily lost on most of this type. Now the question of course is the age of the koftgari. Alex has mentioned he believes it is not original to the sword. The slightly crudish cross hatching makes me suspicious. I am not sure, but even if it is not original to the sword, it surely was not applied "yesterday" based on all the gunk I had to get off the blade. Alex, my guessing about the blade's wootz was based much more on the pics the seller sent me, than on the listing pics. Those pics were slightly better than the listing pics. The charcoal gray blade, with clear irregularities made me suspicious. Thankfully I was right. Any help with koftgari translation would be appreciated. Comments and opinions are welcomed. Attached Images

16th May 2007, 02:45 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	EBay Syrian Sword (retitled "Question" thread) Just ended on E-Bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-19TH-CEN...QQcmdZViewItem I could not help noticing new coftgari (typical and contemporary Syrian work in my opinion). The blade is claimed to be of Damascus steel, and no close-up was provided. Sorry for asking guys: why this sword received so much attention, thus high valuation, am I missing something?

16th May 2007, 05:58 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I was troubled by the lack of blade close-up as well, but overall this struck me as an exceptional sword. The winner is a sophisticated collector (and a member of this forum), who may comment further.

16th May 2007, 08:54 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Although way beyond my pocket it does look jolly impressive. I personally cannot see any problem with the blade or its decoration. I like the scabbard and guard very much. I am bothered by the repair to the hilt. The brass/copper wire and clumsy lump of solder seem to show a recent restoration.

17th May 2007, 01:40 AM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	An interesting sword...ornate but not 'over the top'. Have to agree with Tim about the wire work...it looks 'out of place'.

17th May 2007, 07:48 AM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	My main argument was the fact that the gold coftgari and stamps look strickingly brand new. I've seen similar stamps being offered for $100 each in Damascus. The fittings obviously look old, and typical for the era. Perhaps there is something we did not see on the pictures, i.e. nice wootz pattern and/or old coftgari on the ridge of the blade.

18th May 2007, 01:27 PM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, a textbook syrian shamshir. The koftgari does look new, but could be old. You can't say that for sure just from thoose poor photos.

19th May 2007, 03:42 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The koftgari looks exceptionally new for an old sword. Perhaps, just like Fiegel's swords, this one spent all its life in the armory, cleaned and oiled regularly etc. The buyer is a very experienced collector and I respect his judgement. Hope he will show us more of the blade and answer the inevitable questions. Congratulations with the win and all the best!

29th May 2007, 06:12 PM	#13
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	BEAUTIFUL! Greg

30th May 2007, 12:00 AM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Charles, I knew you would be right! Good bet! Congratulations!