Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt

kai · 16th July 2005, 10:32 PM

Hello,

My interest in Kopesh/Kopis-like blades got me this nice sword for which I yet have to find a name or any other details on its history - any suggestions/observations most welcome!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 16th July 2005, 10:35 PM

Total length is 62.7 cm with 50.4 cm of Wootz/Bulat blade (that's almost 25" and 20") and a cast(?) metal hilt (21.2 cm or 8.3" including the reinforcements) with little silver Koftgari left. The grip scales are bone and have been painted (brownish body with traces of olive/green remaining on the head of the parrot).

The blade has a ricasso (4.6 cm/1.81") and a sharpened false edge (10.0 cm/4"). It has an hardly noticeable, forged central "fuller area" almost along the whole length (i.e. blade slightly thicker along the spine as well as towards the sharpened edges than along the center). Maximum thickness is 3.9 mm (2.5/16") with 3.4 mm (2.1/16") remaining at the base of the false edge. Blade height is 23.2 mm (0.91") at the base, flaring out to 30.9 mm (1.22") around the middle of the blade, and still 26.9 mm (1.06") high at the base of the false edge.

Although it may have originated somewhere else, it was obtained from the Hyderabad region, a hotbed of So(us)sun Patta(h)s. However, the blade of this sword is about 1/3rd shorter than a regular blade of those larger cousins and just about everything else doesn't fit either...

I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references!

It was said to be late 18th century but please put forth your own estimates...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 28th July 2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references!

Well, I'm not going to answer to myself

but should add that this variety isn't mentioned in Pant, Rawson, nor Stone...

None of the many knowledgeable forumites specialising in Indo-Persian blades coming to the rescue? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde · 28th July 2005, 01:12 PM

Hi Kai,

Do you know if the blade has a tang?

True what you write that the blade has a bit Kopis/Soussan Patta/Yatagan to it. The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt?

You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan?

Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look. The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot.

Jens

kai · 29th July 2005, 02:16 AM

Hi Jens, Thanks for your input!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Do you know if the blade has a tang?

No idea. The blade is tightly secured by those 3 rivets. However, I played with the idea to clean up the hilt by electrolytic rust removal and would have to remove the blade for this.

Quote:

The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt?

Wouldn't the ricasso suggest an intact blade? IMVHO it would need some major reforging effort to come up with a new ricasso as well as the shape of the blade...

Possibly a boy's blade? I know it's the usual disingenous ad hoc assumption but the grip is also a bit on the small side.

Quote:

You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan?

Deccan

Quote:

Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look.

I would appreciate that very much! Take your time though.

Quote:

The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot.

I just defaulted on a parrot since that seems to be mentioned much more often than other birds. I'll have a close look again.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 13th November 2005, 12:37 PM

Jens, did you come across that pic you remembered from one of your books?

carlos · 5th December 2005, 05:05 PM

Hello Kai!!
5 years ago i bought this sword in Istambul, the seller told me this sword was from Iran. i think this sword have a similar blade than your.
I´m sorry for my english!!.
regards!!

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2005, 09:55 PM

Hello Kai,
I could not resist coming in on this as it recalled some discussions we had on a chopping sword with vague similarities last June. I recall that initially I was inclined to presume NW frontier regions as the knuckleguard etc recalled a variant form of the Khyber knife...but later realized the form was distinctly of southern regions of India.
Actually Pant does illustrate certain items that seem to correspond to the gestalt of this sword (photo CLI, a dragonhead brass hilt that also has the upper blade bolster of type seen on Ottoman yataghans; another plate XI; another with parrot hilt on tulwar from Gujerat ). The dragonhead items are from Tanjore which is of course SE India. Elgood notes on p.197 of his magnificent "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that yellow brass hilts frequently are characteristic of southern, SW India, and illustrates a hilt with dragonhead and knuckleguard similar to those in Pant.
The blade seems to be consistant with Deccani sosun pattah according to Pant (p.80, fig.167) although he notes the Deccani examples seldom had knuckleguards. It would seem these recurved blades that resemble Mughal daggers such as khandjar and bichwa came in a larger swordsword version probably best compared to dirks or shortswords for close quarters combat.
I have an example with short blade such as yours and with guardless hilt and the khanjhar hilt form which is essentially ultrastylized 'parrothead'.

I tend to think this hilt is a parrot head also. While not typically described in discussions of decoration and motif, there are certain possibilities as far as reasons for its appearance on hilt motif although these associations may not have application. According to symbolism references ( J.E.Cirlot, "A Dictionary of Symbols" N.Y.1962), the parrot is a messenger symbol and as many birds, symbolic of the soul. In Persian literature, the parrot seeks the water of immortality ("Conference of the Birds" by 13th c. Persian poet Faid Ud-Din Attar). In Hinduism , the parrot is associated with Kama, the god of love, as well as prophecy and rainmaking.

I must admit through all this 'parrot' research, I cannot resist thoughts of Jimmy Buffitt!!!!

Seriously though, I am inclined to think this sword is likely to be mid to latter 19th c. India, probably Tamil Nadu regions, possibly Mysore also. It is a most interesting and unusual example , very nice!!

Best regards,
Jim

P.S. Carlos, your also very interesting item has also the Mughal type blade and the hilt with very distinct dot and circle motif that is typical of weaponry from various regions in Afghanistan and Bukhara. The Persian influences of course predominated weapons from these regions.

Jens Nordlunde · 6th December 2005, 01:45 PM

Hi Kai,

There have been quite a lot of onlookers on this thread, but so far, no one has come up with a name – lets hope for the best.
In one of your mails you write that it could be a sword for a child, but is the hilt not too big for the hand of a child?

Hi Jim,

Nice to have you back. I too have a south Indian feeling, but I don’t like, that we so far, have been unable to find a similar blade – other than the one from Figiel’s auction, and that is not exactly like the one Kai shows.

Jens

Andrew · 6th December 2005, 02:21 PM

Hi Jim.

Marc · 6th December 2005, 07:31 PM

Hello, Jim.
Nice to see you.

(BTW, just one of those bits of useless trivia... J. E. Cirlot, was, among other things, an antique weapons lover and collector. Go figure...

)

Titus Pullo · 7th April 2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Kai,

There have been quite a lot of onlookers on this thread, but so far, no one has come up with a name – lets hope for the best.
In one of your mails you write that it could be a sword for a child, but is the hilt not too big for the hand of a child?

Don't let that short small sword full you, though! The sword is rather compactly built in design, which makes it very sturdy and easier to chop at something; it'll probably hack and pierce right through metal plate armor with shear mass like butter. And because it's shorter, it makes it much easier to fight at closed range, which makes stabbing and cutting much easier, making it a deadly weapon. If you look at the Roman sword for example, it's very compact in design...design to get in there and do some serious hacking and piercing. A sword for kids! Psss!

kai · 8th April 2006, 12:42 AM

Hello Titus,

Quote:

The sword is rather compactly built in design, which makes it very sturdy and easier to chop at something; it'll probably hack and pierce right through metal plate armor with shear mass like butter.

Actually, it's not that heavy - I'm pretty sure it's more build for fast cuts (and stabs) rather than heavy blows (e.g. a Khukuri blade has much more momentum).

Quote:

And because it's shorter, it makes it much easier to fight at closed range, which makes stabbing and cutting much easier, making it a deadly weapon.

I certainly wouldn't want to face it, especially with no or smaller blade. However, people have to learn using swords and that's where weapons for teenagers came in handy, especially when there was a possibility that blades might have to used for real.

BTW, I'm not insisting that this is the case with my sword just pointing out that it is a valid possibility.

Quote:

If you look at the Roman sword for example, it's very compact in design...design to get in there and do some serious hacking and piercing. A sword for kids! Psss!

Yeah, but it seems that it evolved from fighting in closed military formations where extra reach can't be fully utilized (or rather was provided by pila). OTOH, the Indian sword size convention does strongly favor longer weapons.

(Note that the draw cut with regular Tulwars already supposes a pretty close quarter engagement - from the western sword play POV, that is. It's still possible that shorter swords like this were specialized back-up weapons for warriors with other primary weapons used at longer ranges. However, there seems to be not much evidence surviving for such a hypothesis AFAIK...)

Regards,
Kai

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th July 2016, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello,

My interest in Kopesh/Kopis-like blades got me this nice sword for which I yet have to find a name or any other details on its history - any suggestions/observations most welcome!

Regards,
Kai

Salams Kai... My apologies since I should have mentioned to you about requesting joining your thread to that of Ariels at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429 ...

Please note that I have requested along with Ariel that these two threads be fused since they are about the same family of swords which appears to be a kind of Indian weapon, hybrid or mixture, not fully researched ...and which together as one thread would make an excellent subject...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

kai · 15th July 2016, 03:20 AM

Hello Ariel,

Thanks a lot for pointing out the companion thread and the possible or even probable relationship based on this rare hilt type!

The hilt construction of the 2 Indian swords with sigmoid wootz blades discussed in this thread seems to be pretty typical for southern India with an integral langet/tunkou used to attach the wootz blade to the hilt. Quite distinct from the full tang construction used in the 3 examples from the other thread. This might merely be due to constraints/function (with wootz blades being size-limited based on ingots) or possibly quality/status (the 2 pieces discussed here seem to be status pieces with elaborate decoration and parrot head pommel while 2 out of 3 in the other thread appear to be of more mundane origin).

While quite a few other blades were shown here in an attempt to establish a relationship, I believe this is a distinct type of sword and I'm not convinced that merging both threads will really help discussion since responses will get mixed up even more.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 18th October 2016, 01:14 PM

Here's a close-up showing the wootz blade of the sword starting this thread. Am I correct to see some surface manipulation during forging of the ingot to achieve a (possibly ladder-like) pattern?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 18th October 2016, 01:25 PM

A very similar sword as already shown in an earlier post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=26

16th July 2005, 10:32 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt Hello, My interest in Kopesh/Kopis-like blades got me this nice sword for which I yet have to find a name or any other details on its history - any suggestions/observations most welcome! Regards, Kai Attached Images

13th November 2005, 12:37 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	BTTT Jens, did you come across that pic you remembered from one of your books?

5th December 2005, 05:05 PM	#7
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	similar blade Hello Kai!! 5 years ago i bought this sword in Istambul, the seller told me this sword was from Iran. i think this sword have a similar blade than your. I´m sorry for my english!!. regards!! Attached Images

18th October 2016, 01:14 PM	#16
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Here's a close-up showing the wootz blade of the sword starting this thread. Am I correct to see some surface manipulation during forging of the ingot to achieve a (possibly ladder-like) pattern? Regards, Kai Attached Images

18th October 2016, 01:25 PM	#17
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	A very similar sword as already shown in an earlier post: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=26 Attached Images

16th July 2005, 10:35 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Total length is 62.7 cm with 50.4 cm of Wootz/Bulat blade (that's almost 25" and 20") and a cast(?) metal hilt (21.2 cm or 8.3" including the reinforcements) with little silver Koftgari left. The grip scales are bone and have been painted (brownish body with traces of olive/green remaining on the head of the parrot). The blade has a ricasso (4.6 cm/1.81") and a sharpened false edge (10.0 cm/4"). It has an hardly noticeable, forged central "fuller area" almost along the whole length (i.e. blade slightly thicker along the spine as well as towards the sharpened edges than along the center). Maximum thickness is 3.9 mm (2.5/16") with 3.4 mm (2.1/16") remaining at the base of the false edge. Blade height is 23.2 mm (0.91") at the base, flaring out to 30.9 mm (1.22") around the middle of the blade, and still 26.9 mm (1.06") high at the base of the false edge. Although it may have originated somewhere else, it was obtained from the Hyderabad region, a hotbed of So(us)sun Patta(h)s. However, the blade of this sword is about 1/3rd shorter than a regular blade of those larger cousins and just about everything else doesn't fit either... I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references! It was said to be late 18th century but please put forth your own estimates... Regards, Kai

28th July 2005, 01:12 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Kai, Do you know if the blade has a tang? True what you write that the blade has a bit Kopis/Soussan Patta/Yatagan to it. The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt? You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan? Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look. The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot. Jens

5th December 2005, 09:55 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hello Kai, I could not resist coming in on this as it recalled some discussions we had on a chopping sword with vague similarities last June. I recall that initially I was inclined to presume NW frontier regions as the knuckleguard etc recalled a variant form of the Khyber knife...but later realized the form was distinctly of southern regions of India. Actually Pant does illustrate certain items that seem to correspond to the gestalt of this sword (photo CLI, a dragonhead brass hilt that also has the upper blade bolster of type seen on Ottoman yataghans; another plate XI; another with parrot hilt on tulwar from Gujerat ). The dragonhead items are from Tanjore which is of course SE India. Elgood notes on p.197 of his magnificent "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that yellow brass hilts frequently are characteristic of southern, SW India, and illustrates a hilt with dragonhead and knuckleguard similar to those in Pant. The blade seems to be consistant with Deccani sosun pattah according to Pant (p.80, fig.167) although he notes the Deccani examples seldom had knuckleguards. It would seem these recurved blades that resemble Mughal daggers such as khandjar and bichwa came in a larger swordsword version probably best compared to dirks or shortswords for close quarters combat. I have an example with short blade such as yours and with guardless hilt and the khanjhar hilt form which is essentially ultrastylized 'parrothead'. I tend to think this hilt is a parrot head also. While not typically described in discussions of decoration and motif, there are certain possibilities as far as reasons for its appearance on hilt motif although these associations may not have application. According to symbolism references ( J.E.Cirlot, "A Dictionary of Symbols" N.Y.1962), the parrot is a messenger symbol and as many birds, symbolic of the soul. In Persian literature, the parrot seeks the water of immortality ("Conference of the Birds" by 13th c. Persian poet Faid Ud-Din Attar). In Hinduism , the parrot is associated with Kama, the god of love, as well as prophecy and rainmaking. I must admit through all this 'parrot' research, I cannot resist thoughts of Jimmy Buffitt!!!! Seriously though, I am inclined to think this sword is likely to be mid to latter 19th c. India, probably Tamil Nadu regions, possibly Mysore also. It is a most interesting and unusual example , very nice!! Best regards, Jim P.S. Carlos, your also very interesting item has also the Mughal type blade and the hilt with very distinct dot and circle motif that is typical of weaponry from various regions in Afghanistan and Bukhara. The Persian influences of course predominated weapons from these regions.

6th December 2005, 01:45 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Kai, There have been quite a lot of onlookers on this thread, but so far, no one has come up with a name – lets hope for the best. In one of your mails you write that it could be a sword for a child, but is the hilt not too big for the hand of a child? Hi Jim, Nice to have you back. I too have a south Indian feeling, but I don’t like, that we so far, have been unable to find a similar blade – other than the one from Figiel’s auction, and that is not exactly like the one Kai shows. Jens

6th December 2005, 02:21 PM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Jim.

6th December 2005, 07:31 PM	#11
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Hello, Jim. Nice to see you. (BTW, just one of those bits of useless trivia... J. E. Cirlot, was, among other things, an antique weapons lover and collector. Go figure... )

15th July 2016, 03:20 AM	#15
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Ariel, Thanks a lot for pointing out the companion thread and the possible or even probable relationship based on this rare hilt type! The hilt construction of the 2 Indian swords with sigmoid wootz blades discussed in this thread seems to be pretty typical for southern India with an integral langet/tunkou used to attach the wootz blade to the hilt. Quite distinct from the full tang construction used in the 3 examples from the other thread. This might merely be due to constraints/function (with wootz blades being size-limited based on ingots) or possibly quality/status (the 2 pieces discussed here seem to be status pieces with elaborate decoration and parrot head pommel while 2 out of 3 in the other thread appear to be of more mundane origin). While quite a few other blades were shown here in an attempt to establish a relationship, I believe this is a distinct type of sword and I'm not convinced that merging both threads will really help discussion since responses will get mixed up even more. Regards, Kai