FORMING HOT METAL WITH BARE HANDS

[VANDOO]

I HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THE KERIS SAID TO HAVE BEEN WORKED HOT AND SHAPED WITH THE BARE HANDS. SOME SHOW INDENTATIONS SAID TO HAVE BEEN MADE BY FINGERS. THERE WAS MENTION OF OTHER BODY PARTS BEING USED AS WELL BUT WE WILL CONCENTRATRE ON HANDS ONLY.
I SAW A PHILIPPINE KRISS WITH WHAT WAS EITHER DEEP RUST PITS OR SOME OF THESE DEPRESSIONS. THIS BROUGHT UP FOUR QUESTIONS.
1. DOES ANY MEMBER HAVE FIRST HAND KNOWLEGE IF THIS TECKNIQUE IS REAL AND IF SO HOW IS IT DONE?.
2. DOES THIS TECKNIQUE APPEAR ON WEAPONS OTHER THAN THE KERIS 3. IS IT MORE COMMON ON MALAYSIAN OR INDONESIAN KERIS?.
4. DOES THE TECKNIQUE OCCUR MOSTLY ON MAJAPAHIT AND BUDA FORMS OR MORE RECENT FORMS AS WELL.?

IT PROBABLY WOULD BE GOOD TO ADD ANY LEGENDS OR STORIES CONCERNING THIS QUESTION ,FACT AS WELL AS FICTION.
SUCH LEGENDS OFTEN SHED SOME LIGHT ON WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SIMPLE TECKNIQUE OR JUST A STORY MADE UP TO ADD TO THE MYSTERY OF THOSE WHO WORKED WITH IRON OR TO PROMOTE A CERTIAN PANDAY OR FORGE. EITHER WAY A INTERESTING STORY.

[David]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THE KERIS SAID TO HAVE BEEN WORKED HOT AND SHAPED WITH THE BARE HANDS. SOME SHOW INDENTATIONS SAID TO HAVE BEEN MADE BY FINGERS. THERE WAS MENTION OF OTHER BODY PARTS BEING USED AS WELL BUT WE WILL CONCENTRATRE ON HANDS ONLY.
I SAW A PHILIPPINE KRISS WITH WHAT WAS EITHER DEEP RUST PITS OR SOME OF THESE DEPRESSIONS. THIS BROUGHT UP FOUR QUESTIONS.
1. DOES ANY MEMBER HAVE FIRST HAND KNOWLEGE IF THIS TECKNIQUE IS REAL AND IF SO HOW IS IT DONE?.
2. DOES THIS TECKNIQUE APPEAR ON WEAPONS OTHER THAN THE KERIS 3. IS IT MORE COMMON ON MALAYSIAN OR INDONESIAN KERIS?.
4. DOES THE TECKNIQUE OCCUR MOSTLY ON MAJAPAHIT AND BUDA FORMS OR MORE RECENT FORMS AS WELL.?

IT PROBABLY WOULD BE GOOD TO ADD ANY LEGENDS OR STORIES CONCERNING THIS QUESTION ,FACT AS WELL AS FICTION.
SUCH LEGENDS OFTEN SHED SOME LIGHT ON WHY IT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SIMPLE TECKNIQUE OR JUST A STORY MADE UP TO ADD TO THE MYSTERY OF THOSE WHO WORKED WITH IRON OR TO PROMOTE A CERTIAN PANDAY OR FORGE. EITHER WAY A INTERESTING STORY.

It is know as Keris Picit when dealing with keris. AFAIK this is a genuine technique that was used a relatively select few keris of talismanic nature. It is also an often faked technique and i am afraid that in the end, after we make all the educated guess that we can make, it ultimately comes down to a matter of faith as to whether or not we believe that these impression were made with bare hands. Personally i believe that i have a few actual examples of the technique in my collection. However, it does not seem to be a particularly superhuman feat. After all, the fingers don't need to be held to the hot, soft metal for very long and i would imaging that well calloused fingertips, possibly with some sauve applied, could do the job without much actual damage to the hand. Think about fire walkers who walk through a field of hot coals. This also isn't magick, just quick movement and a bit of faith in one's self.
I can't say i have seen any contemporary attempts at this, unless they are ones made to be aged to deceive. I believe all my examples are later than Mojopahit and are not in the Buda form. Probably more likely 16th and 17th century.
I am afraid that my damnable logic and common sense demands that i relegate the Mpu Sombro story to that of legend, as intriguing and engaging a story as it might be...

[A. G. Maisey]

Interesting subject.


I've tried it by wetting my hand and very quickly punching my finger tip into a paper thin strip of red hot iron. You can get an indentation like this. I did it a few times and I burnt myself once. I reckon a smith with hardened hands could probably squeeze a similar paper thin piece of iron between his finger tips.

I have seen a dukun (shaman) kissing the cutting edge of a small red hot pedang , which left half moon marks on the blade edge. I felt at the time I was watching stage magic.

In Jawa there are consistent legends about forging a blade by use of hands alone. I think these are legends, but the legend comes close to reality with the talismanic keris pijit, usually these are keris sombro with paper thin blades and they show indentations where supposedly they have been squeezed and indented by finger pressure. As I just said:- this is possible, but I believe that most of these that I've seen, and I've seen a lot, were indented by a hammer.

These pijit marks do not, in my experience, occur on keris buda or keris majapahit (keris sajen) forms, they occur most times in keris sombro, and very, very occasionally in normal keris.

I cannot recall having seen picit marks in anything other than keris.

An after thought:- nothing to do with pijit marks in keris, but a smith who understands fire control can boil water in a paper bag on top of his forge. The bag is filled with water and allowed to get just sufficiently wet to prevent it from catching fire, by controlling the fire at a constant temperature, the water boils, the bag remains unburnt. Its all about balancing heat against moisture. The same sort of logic applies to wet fingers and hot metal.

[ivoke]

think you should google "Leidenfrost-effect"
it occurs when wet surfaces come in contact with very hot surfaces, if the surface isnt hot enough, you'll burn yourself.

[A. G. Maisey]

Which I did. Once.

Don't know anything about leidenfrost.

Do know a little bit about fire and iron.

Addition:-

Just checked the liedenfrost thing. Looks like that's what was happening. Now I know its name.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Which I did. Once.

Don't know anything about leidenfrost.

Do know a little bit about fire and iron.

Addition:-

Just checked the liedenfrost thing. Looks like that's what was happening. Now I know its name.

As someone who has unintentionally grabbed,not gently touched nor bumped, but put a hand sqeeze on an orange bar of steel in a very unfocused moment.....I would say that it is all legend. It took me three weeks to heal enough to really use that hand again.
At a good welding heat 1% carbon steel is about as close to dripping liquid as it will get...and still more resistant to our flesh than we are to it.

That is not to say that we can not bend it or twist it, but we can not "forge it"...apply enough pressure to leave an indentation the bar...no way. In blade thicknesses it cannot be done, but I would think that one could ripple a bar of 1/16" thick steel without much issue, but leaving indentations in a 1/8" thick or more bar..no.

I have seen blades which had "lip prints" and "finger prints" in the steel..done with tools not flesh I am sure.


As to the vapor barrier...yes it can help a lot with lessening the severity of casual contact burns, HOWEVER, once you push hard enough to break through the vapor....which one would need to do to forge, well...that is a different story.....ever see meat on a hot grill? That was my hand...made the same sound too.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard, I recognise you as an experienced smith, however, I have indented red hot, not orange, iron with the tip of my middle finger.

The material was paper thin, which is the thickness of a sombro blade, paper thin, not one sixteenth, nor anything like it.

I had a tray of sand on the anvil, I kept my right hand in water until the iron was directly over the sand and as close as it could be without touching, then I punched my finger tip into the hot iron as fast as I could. I tried this a few times, and I burnt myself once, the burn was not severe, but that was the last time I tried it.

What I've described can be done, but you need to move very fast.

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I was not forming metal, the metal I hit with my finger tip was paper thin.

As to forming metal with bare hands, my feeling is the same as yours, but I've seen some very strange and totally inexplicable things in Jawa and Bali. Maybe it is a possibility, but not for me, and not for you.

[Dominique]

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]
In Jawa there are consistent legends about forging a blade by use of hands alone. I think these are legends, but the legend comes close to reality with the talismanic keris pijit, usually these are keris sombro with paper thin blades and they show indentations where supposedly they have been squeezed and indented by finger pressure.

Alan, I am curious to know if you would consider this keris as pijit. The blade is very thin and flexible towards the point. You can see indentations on both sides.

[David]

[QUOTE=Dominique]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Interesting subject.

In Jawa there are consistent legends about forging a blade by use of hands alone. I think these are legends, but the legend comes close to reality with the talismanic keris pijit, usually these are keris sombro with paper thin blades and they show indentations where supposedly they have been squeezed and indented by finger pressure.

Alan, I am curious to know if you would consider this keris as pijit. The blade is very thin and flexible towards the point. You can see indentations on both sides.

Dominique, that is an interesting keris. And i very much like the hilt.
A keris picit (pijit, pecit, whatever spelling ) is so-called based upon what appear to be impressions of finger tip in the blade. You say there are indentations on both sides of this blade, but honestly i cannot see them in these photographs. maybe Alan's eyes are better than mine.
Maybe you could try a different angle for your shot. The high-relief pamor pattern on this blade does not make it easy to assess indentations if they are there.

[Dominique]

I know, it doesn't look like finger tips, but there are slight indentations, the blade is not flat. I would need to make a pic of the blade profile.
I like the hilt too

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry Dominique, from the pics I cannot tell whether I'm looking at a possible KP or not.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Thank you for your warm welcome, Pak Alan and David. Yes, it's happened that life has brought me here to The Land of Oz.

Well, I might say, keris terminology has been in chaos lately, especially since the social networking became popular in Indonesia. 100s friends on your list is a small number. Suddenly, everyone became keris expert

And regarding symbolism...well..it seems everyone has his own interpretation now..

Originally Posted by VANDOO

...

1. DOES ANY MEMBER HAVE FIRST HAND KNOWLEGE IF THIS TECKNIQUE IS REAL AND IF SO HOW IS IT DONE?.
2. DOES THIS TECKNIQUE APPEAR ON WEAPONS OTHER THAN THE KERIS
3. IS IT MORE COMMON ON MALAYSIAN OR INDONESIAN KERIS?.
4. DOES THE TECKNIQUE OCCUR MOSTLY ON MAJAPAHIT AND BUDA FORMS OR MORE RECENT FORMS AS WELL.?

1. No, I don't have the first hand knowledge. But once, a senior keris lover told a story about his grandfather who was a court's empu named Tarunadahana. He saw his grandfather working in the workshop/besalen, handling his red-hot work with his bare hand. He asked," Isn't it hot, Grandpa?" "Yes, it is", The Grandpa replied, "But fire is an assistant of empus. If he couldn't master the fire, how could he works?". But yet, Tarunadahana still had hammers and tongs to help him. "Mastering the fire" to some extend was a pre-requirement to became a court empus.

2. As far as I know, no. And mostly it only applied to kerises that weren't intended as a weapon.

3. In my experience, mostly Javanese. Well, anyway, I don't have much experience on Malaysian kerises,

4. Majapahit-like, to be precise. If it comes later, then it would be shaped like the old keris. To be perceived as powerful, it's better that a talismanic devices has an archaic origin, right? Or at least it looks like ones . But most talismanic kerises don't adhere to tight 'tangguh' requirement. So, estimating it's ages/era, even using the traditional methods, is a guessing game. "Looks old" is the game, the older the better. I'm not saying every pieces is new. What I'm saying is, even if it was made in Mataram era, it would take an older style.

Like Allan, I'm very skeptical, especially regarding 'strange kerises'. Unlike a good judge, I assume "guilty" untill proven otherwise to any 'strange' kerises.

[David]

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

Like Allan, I'm very skeptical, especially regarding 'strange kerises'. Unlike a good judge, I assume "guilty" untill proven otherwise to any 'strange' kerises.

This seems a healthy skepticism...