"Malaysian kris/keris"

[Ian]

This one just finished online today. It is unusual. Anyone seen another one like it?

I'm not sure if it belongs here or over in the Keris Coffee Shop.

Ian.

.

[kai]

Hello Ian,

I strongly suspect this is a very recent Indonesian creation; not based on any genuine tradition.

Since it is apparently meant to resemble a keris sundang (aka Moro kris), I believe it is fair game here rather than the warung kopis...

Regards,
Kai

[F. de Luzon]

Hi Ian,

It is a Keris Sundang with a Bugis style hilt cup (pendokok). I've seen similar blades and hilts in Kuala Lumpur. In one shop I visited, it was referred to as Keris Sulu. I think because the style is inspired by the Moro kris. However, while Moro krisses have hilt rings, the Keris Sundang is supplied with a hilt cup just like the ones you'll find on the Indonesian and Malaysian keris. The Keris Sundang thus looks like a cross between the keris and the Moro kris.

That's an interesting pattern on that blade.

Kind regards,

F. de Luzon

[David]

Well, it sure doesn't look Moro to my eyes. Certainly a Malay Sundang. I think i should probably transfer this one over to the Keris Forum unless anyone thinks otherwise.

[kai]

Hello David,

Well, it sure doesn't look Moro to my eyes. Certainly a Malay Sundang.

Nah, it's not a Malay keris sundang. It's a badly done modern repro, most likely from a culture (Madura?) that never had any kind of keris sundang.

I think i should probably transfer this one over to the Keris Forum

Not unless you want to cause sore eyes...

We have always discussed legitimate keris sundang on the ethno forum, not in the warung kopis... [Trying to cut a line between Moro kris, Brunei kris/keris sundang, and Malay/Riau/Indo keris sundang would be pretty futile in many cases - quite a few have Moro blades, anyway!]

Regards,
Kai

[Rafngard]

Hello All,

I don't think I'm experienced enough to have an opinion on whether this is more in the Malay or Moro tradition (or an indonesian imitation of either). However, it's worth mentioning that the blade isn't your typical your typical iron/steal, but rather pot metal/white metal. This was mentioned in the ebay listing.

Thanks,
Leif

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Nah, it's not a Malay keris sundang. It's a badly done modern repro, most likely from a culture (Madura?) that never had any kind of keris sundang.

That may well be so, but it is still something created in Indonesia and is has been made in a form much closer to examples of Malay Sundangs than Moro. I believe its intention is to be taken for a Malay Sundang given the included ricikan of this blade and the dress form.

Originally Posted by kai

Not unless you want to cause sore eyes...

Perhaps so, but then it would be an "eyesore" no matter which forum it was posted in.

Originally Posted by kai

We have always discussed legitimate keris sundang on the ethno forum, not in the warung kopis... [Trying to cut a line between Moro kris, Brunei kris/keris sundang, and Malay/Riau/Indo keris sundang would be pretty futile in many cases - quite a few have Moro blades, anyway!]

Well, that is demonstrably false Kai. If you search just the Keris Forum for Malay Sundang you will find that we have discussed these numerous times on that board. These blades have always fallen in a bit of a middle ground and you can find discussions of them on both forums. And i think we can agree that this one is not a Moro made blade, yes?

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

And i think we can agree that this one is not a Moro made blade, yes?

Certainly not Moro.

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

It is a Keris Sundang with a Bugis style hilt cup (pendokok). I've seen similar blades and hilts in Kuala Lumpur. In one shop I visited, it was referred to as Keris Sulu. I think because the style is inspired by the Moro kris. However, while Moro krisses have hilt rings, the Keris Sundang is supplied with a hilt cup just like the ones you'll find on the Indonesian and Malaysian keris. The Keris Sundang thus looks like a cross between the keris and the Moro kris.

Yes F., we have certainly encountered these on the forum on numerous occasions. If you do a search of the forums under "Malay Sundang" you will find many discussion threads on these.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

Yes F., we have certainly encountered these on the forum on numerous occasions. If you do a search of the forums under "Malay Sundang" you will find many discussion threads on these.

Hi David,

My description is based on a few examples I saw being sold in souvenir and antique shops in Kuala Lumpur. I remember seeing one with a hilt and hilt cup that is almost identical to the example above. When I inquired, I was told they were “Malay sundang.” That’s the basis of my statement. I regret not taking photos but Ian's example shares some of the features.

Curiously, I have Noraim Shariff’s book on the handicrafts of Terengganu (a region of Malaysia with a keris tradition) where there is a section on the keris industry, but the term sundang is not mentioned nor does its image appear in the book.

I took some photographs of the sundang at the National Museum of Malaysia (Muzium Negara) as well as the Islamic Arts Museum Malaysia, which I have attached below. The first one is from the Muzium Negara, the second its description, the third from the Islamic Arts Museum and the last the description.

In the museums, the terms sundang and Keris Suluk are used to refer to the Moro kris. There is no reference to a "peninsular" sundang (Malay Sundang?) in both museums.

I noticed the unusual hilts on the Moro kris from the Islamic Arts Museum. These are not common in the Philippines and they make them resemble the examples of “Malay sundang” in the discussion threads. Looking at the blades on the discussion threads, they really look more like re-hilted Moro krises, as mentioned by Kai.

Well known Manila antique dealer Ven Magbuhos personally told me that over the years, he has sent "crate loads" (his words) of Moro krises to Malaysia and that he doesn't know what has happened to them since. The probability that some of these blades have been re-hilted with a style in tune with Malaysian aesthetic sensibilities is probable.

Of course, the probability of Moro krises making their way from Mindanao across the Malay Archipelago onward to the Malay Peninsula throughout the centuries is also likely. James Warren provides an extensive discussion on the external trade of Sulu during the 19th century. Saleeby and Majul also indicate it. The work of Krieger also shows keris among the weapons used by Moros thus showing the exchange of commodities (including weapons) across the region. Edward Frey does not provide any examples of Malay sundang but mentions the use of the term as inappropriate when referring to the Moro kris. If I remember correctly, neither do A.H. Hill, G.C. Wooley and E. Banks trace the manufacture of the sundang to Peninsular Malaysia in their studies. Nonetheless, it seems to be a fact that such swords were present in the Malay Peninsula and just like in Mindanao, Sulu or Borneo, these swords would have required re-hilting eventually. This may explain the hilts that distinguish the so called Malay Sundang from the Moro kris.

The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."

Just sharing my thoughts and hopefully contributing to the discussion.

Regards,

F. de Luzon

[Ian]

When I saw this one I thought it was not very old. The hilt, in particular, reminded me of some of the recent horn hilts on pira, notably the way the horn cavity has been covered with a piece cut to fill the hole at the end of the hilt. That said, I don't believe this is a sword from the Sulu Archipelago but rather from Malaysia, as the seller indicated.

Nobody has commented so far on, what seems to me, an unusual arrangement of the luk, which occupy roughly in the middle third of the blade. I don't recall seeing another example where the curves start so far away from the hilt, but perhaps our keris experts can comment on how commonly this occurs.

Ian.

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Hi David,

My description is based on a few examples I saw being sold in souvenir and antique shops in Kuala Lumpur. I remember seeing one with a hilt and hilt cup that is almost identical to the example above. When I inquired, I was told they were “Malay sundang.” That’s the basis of my statement. I regret not taking photos but Ian's example shares some of the features.

Curiously, I have Noraim Shariff’s book on the handicrafts of Terengganu (a region of Malaysia with a keris tradition) where there is a section on the keris industry, but the term sundang is not mentioned nor does its image appear in the book.

I took some photographs of the sundang at the National Museum of Malaysia (Muzium Negara) as well as the Islamic Arts Museum Malaysia, which I have attached below. The first one is from the Muzium Negara, the second its description, the third from the Islamic Arts Museum and the last the description.

In the museums, the terms sundang and Keris Suluk are used to refer to the Moro kris. There is no reference to a "peninsular" sundang (Malay Sundang?) in both museums.

I noticed the unusual hilts on the Moro kris from the Islamic Arts Museum. These are not common in the Philippines and they make them resemble the examples of “Malay sundang” in the discussion threads. Looking at the blades on the discussion threads, they really look more like re-hilted Moro krises, as mentioned by Kai.

Well known Manila antique dealer Ven Magbuhos personally told me that over the years, he has sent "crate loads" (his words) of Moro krises to Malaysia and that he doesn't know what has happened to them since. The probability that some of these blades have been re-hilted with a style in tune with Malaysian aesthetic sensibilities is probable.

Of course, the probability of Moro krises making their way from Mindanao across the Malay Archipelago onward to the Malay Peninsula throughout the centuries is also likely. James Warren provides an extensive discussion on the external trade of Sulu during the 19th century. Saleeby and Majul also indicate it. The work of Krieger also shows keris among the weapons used by Moros thus showing the exchange of commodities (including weapons) across the region. Edward Frey does not provide any examples of Malay sundang but mentions the use of the term as inappropriate when referring to the Moro kris. If I remember correctly, neither do A.H. Hill, G.C. Wooley and E. Banks trace the manufacture of the sundang to Peninsular Malaysia in their studies. Nonetheless, it seems to be a fact that such swords were present in the Malay Peninsula and just like in Mindanao, Sulu or Borneo, these swords would have required re-hilting eventually. This may explain the hilts that distinguish the so called Malay Sundang from the Moro kris.

The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."

Just sharing my thoughts and hopefully contributing to the discussion.

Regards,

F. de Luzon

Forgive me if i misunderstand you train of thought here, but you seem to be attempting to debunk the notion of sundang blades being created indigenously by Malays themselves for other than souvenir purposes. While it is clearly obvious that many of the Malay dressed sundangs (perhaps even most) do indeed use Moro made blades i have seen many that obviously are not of Moro manufacture and the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.
As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.
Anyway, i think to would be incorrect to assume that if a Malay sundang does not have a Moro blade that it was manufactured only to be a "souvenir item".

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me if i misunderstand you train of thought here, but you seem to be attempting to debunk the notion of sundang blades being created indigenously by Malays themselves for other than souvenir purposes. While it is clearly obvious that many of the Malay dressed sundangs (perhaps even most) do indeed use Moro made blades i have seen many that obviously are not of Moro manufacture and the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.
As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.
Anyway, i think to would be incorrect to assume that if a Malay sundang does not have a Moro blade that it was manufactured only to be a "souvenir item".

Thank you for your comments. I wish I could claim that I am “attempting to debunk a notion” but with the evidence that I have presented (or lack thereof on the Malay Sundang ), all I can say is that I am sharing an observation.

I shared my observation that the so called Malay Sundang/Peninsular Sundang are actually re-hilted Moro Kris and that there is no evidence of the production of such blades in Peninsular Malaysia. I supplied the references for such view above. To further support this observation, allow me to quote from R.O. Winstedt’s article “The Sundang and Other Malaysian Art Motifs” which was published in the Journal of the Malayan Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society in October 1941:

Soendang “a short broad sword” says van Ronkel’s dictionary with no word as its provenance. In the Encyclopaedia van Nedelandsch-Indie (1921) vol. IV, p.680 the word is not to be found but it is described under kalis-“Very different from the keris of Netherlands India is the kalis of the Philippines and of the Sulu Islands. It occurs also in North Borneo and more recently in the districts of Jambi and Indragiri. The Leiden catalogue mentions a specimen from Riau. The blade is long and for a great part of its length is of the same breadth, so that the weapon is as good for hewing as for stabbing. This applies to the wavy as well as to the straight blades, as the waves are small and shallow. More remarkable than anything else are the hilts and the copper or steel fastening about the broad butt. The hilts are nearly straight, Philippine examples ending in a knob in the shape of a bird’s head. Sulu ones in a stylized seated bird with jutting head and tail.” The same article cites soendang as a sword from East Sumatra but gives no description. Wilkinson explains sundang as “sword keris; Sulu Keris…..It differs from the keris in size and massiveness and in its large and serviceable cockatoo headed handle”. My own English-Malay Dictionary & History of Malay call it a sword and following Malay tradition, ascribe it to the Bugis who evidently popularized it. Mr. Wooley talks of “keris like sword of Borneo known as the keris Suluk” …. And Mr. E. Banks of the “keris Suluk or Sundang…., describing it clearly with photos and terming it a broad sword rather than a dagger, with the pregnant comment that it is “almost the only Malaysian cutting instrument with both sides sharpened” (p. 238)

Please take note that the author made no reference to a Peninsular Malaysian origin but to its origins primarily in Sulu and Borneo. I believe this further supports my observation that the so called Malay Sundang are essentially a re-hilted Moro kris.

With regard the blades that you described as “obviously (are) not of Moro manufacture,” the article mentions a sword called soendang in East Sumatra (Jambi/Indragiri?). It is unfortunate that no description was provided but it opens the possibility of a non-Moro origin of certain sundang. I hope that some of the keris experts can enlighten us on this matter. I am not closed to the possibility of alternative origins but so far, I have not seen evidence of it being the Peninsula.

I also stated that the only examples referred to as “Malay Sundang” that I personally saw are items being sold in Kuala Lumpur souvenir and antique shops. These resemble Ian’s example above and I believe that they are souvenir items and not serious fighting blades.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.

As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.

Actually, on the usage of Frey, I simply wanted to show that he used the term in reference to the Moro kris and not to the so called Malay Sundang.

The word "Sundang" is a generic term for knife or sword in Philippine languages. Its usage can range from a kitchen knife, to a bolo (itak/itac), to a sword like the kris. I’ve noticed how it has been used to refer specifically to the straight kris in the discussion forums but in common usage, it is really a very generic term. Here are some examples from nineteenth century dictionaries:

In the Spanish-Tagalog manual, Vade-mecum filipino, o, Manual de la conversación familiar español-tagalog : sequido de un curioso vocabulario de modismos Manileños by V.M. de Abella, published in Manila in 1874; cuchillo de cocina (kitchen knife) is translated as itac or sundang. Cuchillo (knife) is translated as sundang or campit.

In the Diccionario tiruray-español (Tiruray-Spanish dictionary) by Guillermo Bennásar and published in 1892, Sundang is defined as “especie de espada corta y ancha llamada vulgarmente cris” or "species of short and broad sword called vulgarly cris."

You'll find similar usage in other Philippine languages and dialects. The range of meaning of the term sundang is thus really broad.