Double disc pommel kaskara

Iain · 21st June 2014, 01:23 PM

I think this could make for an interesting topic. To start it off, a sword from the MET. I'd seen poor quality images of this piece before but it seems since I last looked very clear images have been made available online. I am attaching them here.

The blade is wootz with the fuller taking the form of snakes with the heads terminating hear the guard. Anyone have any idea as to the age of the blade?

The hilt is also quite unusual in form with two discs in the pommel.

These seem to be a fairly rare kaskara subtype. I would love to find one myself someday!

CharlesS · 21st June 2014, 01:35 PM

While the hilt and double pommel discs are interesting to be sure, I am more fascinated by the superb quality of the wootz blade.

For me it is even more proof that wootz can be found even in the least likely places in the Islamic world.

Thanks so much for these pics Iain.

Gavin Nugent · 21st June 2014, 03:02 PM

Orez Perski shows a similar blade, figures 101a & b as 18th century...personally though I am not convinced this is that old of a blade though.

The sword appears to be fully museum conserved too...kinda would have liked to know the scabbard fittings as the pommel is real interesting.

Gavin

Iain · 21st June 2014, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Orez Perski shows a similar blade, figures 101a & b as 18th century...personally though I am not convinced this is that old of a blade though.

The sword appears to be fully museum conserved too...kinda would have liked to know the scabbard fittings as the pommel is real interesting.

Gavin

I checked through my notes on this one. According to Nickel, likely collected after the Siege of Omdurman and acquired by the MET along with several other very good swords.

It seems to be 19th century Qajar revival. The cartouche reads Ali of Shiraz the maker, on the opposite side the name and title of Sultan Nasir ad Din Shah Qajar (1848-1896).

CharlesS · 21st June 2014, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

I checked through my notes on this one. According to Nickel, likely collected after the Siege of Omdurman and acquired by the MET along with several other very good swords.

It seems to be 19th century Qajar revival. The cartouche reads Ali of Shiraz the maker, on the opposite side the name and title of Sultan Nasir ad Din Shah Qajar (1848-1896).

Iain,

Those dates and the Qajar attribution help explain both the type of wootz, and the snake motif....both more common on Qajar era pieces.

Still fascinates me that it found its way to the Sudan.

Like Gavin, I'd love to know what the original scabbard looked like.

Iain · 21st June 2014, 08:10 PM

An item such as this sword blade seems perhaps most likely to have arrived into the Sudan as a diplomatic gift. Perhaps it is also within the realm of possibility that some Sudanese would have journeyed to Persia in the 19th century due to the shared religious connect of both areas being Shi'a.

Edster · 21st June 2014, 11:45 PM

Hi Iain,

Could we say that this particular sword is indeed not a kaskara? While the blade is magnificent, it has a tapered profile and is narrower than the traditional form. Kaskarae as we know them use either trade, or local cast or forged blades not wootz. The only attribute that would point to kaskara is the cross guard, certainly not the double pommel.

So the question is "what does a kaskara make?

Ed

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2014, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Hi Iain,

Could we say that this particular sword is indeed not a kaskara? While the blade is magnificent, it has a tapered profile and is narrower than the traditional form. Kaskarae as we know them use either trade, or local cast or forged blades not wootz. The only attribute that would point to kaskara is the cross guard, certainly not the double pommel.

So the question is "what does a kaskara make?

Ed

I would consider this a variant form, and the hilt elements reflect good degree of similarity to kaskaras from Darfur regions (Reed, 1987). The blade itself is certainly an anomaly, but the term kaskara itself is a derivative term not used for these broadswords locally as they are termed sa'if as I understand.

ariel · 22nd June 2014, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Orez Perski shows .....
Gavin

Orez Perski is not an author: it simply means "Persian Weapons" in Polish.
The chief editor of this book was Antoni Romuald Chodynski.

The lay-out of the cover page confused many people, who used the title as the author's name.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd June 2014, 06:14 PM

For snake worship in Africa see http://archive.org/stream/serpentwor...1hamb_djvu.txt

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2014, 07:11 PM

Iain you have described these circumstances as always perfectly and eloquently! I think Lee once described the use of a term to describe a type of item collectively the suffix NOS (=not otherwise specified).

Ariel thank you for the clarification on that book title, I think Gav was actually referring to the title in that sense as in discussion using vernacular we often used predominant term or authors name for brevity. I often term that reference simply 'Perski' in conversation without thinking of the literal meaning. It is good to note here however for the readers, and much appreciated.

Gav, good point on the trade blade aspect, and in that sense this one would be rather at the high end of the spectrum in that it may well be a blade intended either diplomatically or 'promotionally'. Clearly it went to a person of standing as we have noted that these unusual variant hilts were usually used by high ranking officials or nobility.

Ibrahiim, thank you very much for the link to the snake worship aspects, and indeed the snake becomes a most important icon and symbol in many of these African cultures. It is always difficult to presume meanings or purpose in the subjective nature of tradition and superstition, and good to consider the aspects collectively before dismissing certain possibilities.

colin henshaw · 23rd June 2014, 10:28 AM

Hi Iain

A useful and interesting thread; never seen a kaskara with those double pommels before...

Regards.

Iain · 26th June 2014, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi Iain

A useful and interesting thread; never seen a kaskara with those double pommels before...

Regards.

There don't seem to be many about. The one in Leeds and the one in the MET are the only two off the top of my head I recall seeing... I'd be quite curious to see any others around!

Martin Lubojacky · 4th July 2014, 01:46 PM

Engraving from the book "Ethiopia Engraved" (Orig. Lefebvre Atlas, l. 44 and 45): "Early 19th-Century Weapons)

Iain · 4th July 2014, 04:54 PM

Hi Martin, thanks for the image, I've seen that engraving of the kaskara before but never the full page.

CharlesS · 4th July 2014, 08:11 PM

This engraving is fascinating in many regards, the kaskara certainly one of them.

I was also drawn to the sword hilts opposite each other at the bottom of the page. The one to the left looks faceted and appears rounded...a form very typical of Ottoman daggers. The one to the right looks more Arabic in origin than typically Ethiopian. Neither of these outside influences would be particularly shocking, but I am fascinated by the cross-cultural sharing of styles, as many of you know.

Martin Lubojacky · 7th July 2014, 09:34 AM

Hi,
Sorry that I did not enclose the copy of the whole page, the handles are from "Afar style" daggers.
There is no doubt about influence comming from Arab and Ottoman world to Ethiopia that time.

Ethiopia that time was sorrouned with muslim countries and small kingdoms. Now it is landlocked, but look at e.g. Rashida peaple (Eritrea was part of the Abyssinian Kingdom). This influence was not only the question of the 19th century, but of the thousands of years ("colonization" of the African Horn from Arabic peninsula allegedly min in 2 big wawes - ancient Kingdom of Sheba - common part of Yemanite and Ethiopean history, fights of Abyssinian kings against Harar Kingdom, Somals, also against Mahdi´s Army - I think they knew Arabic and Ottoman weaponry very well). I think also this dagger is the result of such or similar influence: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14202

I eclose lower part of the page and another two pictures from the nice book "Ethiopia Engraved".
Regards,
Martin

ariel · 8th July 2014, 12:14 AM

I would guess that the wootz blade on this kaskara comes from Persia: a ( much) better-than-average Qajar "Revival sword".

Iain · 8th July 2014, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I would guess that the wootz blade on this kaskara comes from Persia: a ( much) better-than-average Qajar "Revival sword".

Indeed, if you see the 4th post in this thread (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...58&postcount=4) I posted the translation of the cartouche which seems to confirm this.

21st June 2014, 01:23 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Double disc pommel kaskara I think this could make for an interesting topic. To start it off, a sword from the MET. I'd seen poor quality images of this piece before but it seems since I last looked very clear images have been made available online. I am attaching them here. The blade is wootz with the fuller taking the form of snakes with the heads terminating hear the guard. Anyone have any idea as to the age of the blade? The hilt is also quite unusual in form with two discs in the pommel. These seem to be a fairly rare kaskara subtype. I would love to find one myself someday! Attached Images

4th July 2014, 01:46 PM	#14
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Engraving from the book "Ethiopia Engraved" (Orig. Lefebvre Atlas, l. 44 and 45): "Early 19th-Century Weapons) Attached Images

7th July 2014, 09:34 AM	#17
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi, Sorry that I did not enclose the copy of the whole page, the handles are from "Afar style" daggers. There is no doubt about influence comming from Arab and Ottoman world to Ethiopia that time. Ethiopia that time was sorrouned with muslim countries and small kingdoms. Now it is landlocked, but look at e.g. Rashida peaple (Eritrea was part of the Abyssinian Kingdom). This influence was not only the question of the 19th century, but of the thousands of years ("colonization" of the African Horn from Arabic peninsula allegedly min in 2 big wawes - ancient Kingdom of Sheba - common part of Yemanite and Ethiopean history, fights of Abyssinian kings against Harar Kingdom, Somals, also against Mahdi´s Army - I think they knew Arabic and Ottoman weaponry very well). I think also this dagger is the result of such or similar influence: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14202 I eclose lower part of the page and another two pictures from the nice book "Ethiopia Engraved". Regards, Martin Attached Images

21st June 2014, 01:35 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	While the hilt and double pommel discs are interesting to be sure, I am more fascinated by the superb quality of the wootz blade. For me it is even more proof that wootz can be found even in the least likely places in the Islamic world. Thanks so much for these pics Iain.

21st June 2014, 03:02 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Orez Perski shows a similar blade, figures 101a & b as 18th century...personally though I am not convinced this is that old of a blade though. The sword appears to be fully museum conserved too...kinda would have liked to know the scabbard fittings as the pommel is real interesting. Gavin

21st June 2014, 08:10 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	An item such as this sword blade seems perhaps most likely to have arrived into the Sudan as a diplomatic gift. Perhaps it is also within the realm of possibility that some Sudanese would have journeyed to Persia in the 19th century due to the shared religious connect of both areas being Shi'a.

21st June 2014, 11:45 PM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Hi Iain, Could we say that this particular sword is indeed not a kaskara? While the blade is magnificent, it has a tapered profile and is narrower than the traditional form. Kaskarae as we know them use either trade, or local cast or forged blades not wootz. The only attribute that would point to kaskara is the cross guard, certainly not the double pommel. So the question is "what does a kaskara make? Ed

22nd June 2014, 06:14 PM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	For snake worship in Africa see http://archive.org/stream/serpentwor...1hamb_djvu.txt

22nd June 2014, 07:11 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Iain you have described these circumstances as always perfectly and eloquently! I think Lee once described the use of a term to describe a type of item collectively the suffix NOS (=not otherwise specified). Ariel thank you for the clarification on that book title, I think Gav was actually referring to the title in that sense as in discussion using vernacular we often used predominant term or authors name for brevity. I often term that reference simply 'Perski' in conversation without thinking of the literal meaning. It is good to note here however for the readers, and much appreciated. Gav, good point on the trade blade aspect, and in that sense this one would be rather at the high end of the spectrum in that it may well be a blade intended either diplomatically or 'promotionally'. Clearly it went to a person of standing as we have noted that these unusual variant hilts were usually used by high ranking officials or nobility. Ibrahiim, thank you very much for the link to the snake worship aspects, and indeed the snake becomes a most important icon and symbol in many of these African cultures. It is always difficult to presume meanings or purpose in the subjective nature of tradition and superstition, and good to consider the aspects collectively before dismissing certain possibilities.

23rd June 2014, 10:28 AM	#12
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Iain A useful and interesting thread; never seen a kaskara with those double pommels before... Regards.

4th July 2014, 04:54 PM	#15
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Martin, thanks for the image, I've seen that engraving of the kaskara before but never the full page.

4th July 2014, 08:11 PM	#16
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	This engraving is fascinating in many regards, the kaskara certainly one of them. I was also drawn to the sword hilts opposite each other at the bottom of the page. The one to the left looks faceted and appears rounded...a form very typical of Ottoman daggers. The one to the right looks more Arabic in origin than typically Ethiopian. Neither of these outside influences would be particularly shocking, but I am fascinated by the cross-cultural sharing of styles, as many of you know.

8th July 2014, 12:14 AM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would guess that the wootz blade on this kaskara comes from Persia: a ( much) better-than-average Qajar "Revival sword".