Turkish Shamshir

[Miguel]

Hi Everyone,
I think that I may have what I believe to be a 19thC Turkish Shamshir and would welcome your confirmation or other wise and any comments you may have.
Thanking you in advance
Miguel

[Miguel]

Forgot to include Armourers stamp.
Miguel

[TVV]

You are correct: definitely Ottoman and 19th century. I do believe this is one of the early military regulation patterns in the Ottoman army. It would appear that officers were allowed to keep heirloom blades and re-hilt them, as I have seen all kinds of blades with this hilt pattern.

Sincerely,
Teodor

[Kubur]

Yes, it's a beautiful Turkish officer sword, called also Turkish military sword.
I have one too that I'll post later.
But yours is better, with the stamp...
This kind of sword is from 1890-1910...Maybe yours is slightly early from 1870-1890...
I like the old and funny try to fix the guard.
Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur

[ALEX]

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).

Originally Posted by Kubur

... Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Irrespective of what the different terms mean/meant in different times, countries and cultures "saif" and "kilij" now refers to two different types of swords. Kilij refering to the strictly Ottoman sword with a distintive grip, while saif refers to the sword with the type of grip pictured below, of course people can use whatever term they choose but why use any other term besides kilij for the Ottoman sword with the distinctive kilij grip? If it has a "karabela" grip it is a karabela, if it has a "kilij" grip it is a kilij, if it has a "saif" grip it is a saif.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Hi Alex,
I agree, but to complete your post
Kilij is a sword in Turkish, no more.
"Pronounced curve and yelman", I guess you describe a pala
Best,
Kubur

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).



Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Hi Alex, Thanks for your comments, I am not sure where the blade was made I have been trying to match the stamp but without success so far.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).



Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Hi Alex, Thanks for your comments, I do not know where the blade was made and have been trying to match the stamp without success so far.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Yes, it's a beautiful Turkish officer sword, called also Turkish military sword.
I have one too that I'll post later.
But yours is better, with the stamp...
This kind of sword is from 1890-1910...Maybe yours is slightly early from 1870-1890...
I like the old and funny try to fix the guard.
Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur, I'm just going on what I have seen types of this sword called, I certainly would not call it a Kilij or Saif as these names conjure up totally different types of sword to me even if your comments are correct, if anything the blade seems more sabre like.
Regards
Miguel

[O. Baskurt]

Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece

with Best regards
O. Baskurt

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by TVV

You are correct: definitely Ottoman and 19th century. I do believe this is one of the early military regulation patterns in the Ottoman army. It would appear that officers were allowed to keep heirloom blades and re-hilt them, as I have seen all kinds of blades with this hilt pattern.

Sincerely,
Teodor

Thanks for your comments Teodor I had a feeling that it may be military but was not aware of officers being able to keep their heirloom blades and re-hilt them which means that there must be a good variety of this sword with different blades, most interesting.
Regards
Miguel

[eftihis]

I think the sword discussed in the link bellow http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...european+blade fits in the discusion! It has a european blade with a pala hilt.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Everyone,
I think that I may have what I believe to be a 19thC Turkish Shamshir and would welcome your confirmation or other wise and any comments you may have.
Thanking you in advance
Miguel

Miguel, nice example, thanks for posting, its hard to tell from the photos but do the fittings have a gold tint?

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Miguel, nice example, thanks for posting, its hard to tell from the photos but do the fittings have a gold tint?

Hi Estcrh, Thanks for your comments, much clearer pics than mine I am afraid that I am no very good at taking photos due to vision problems. The tint you can see is brass which must have been originally silvered.
Regards
Miguel

[estcrh]

A few different saif/sayf references. The top left image is from George Stones book, he shows an Indian sword and a sword from Java as being saif, Stone mentions saif as having a "hooked pommel". The top right image from the "Official Report of the Calcutta International Exhibition, 1883-84" mentions two types of Indian swords as being "saif-i-janubi" and "saif-i-halbi". The third image is from "Oriental Armour" by H. Russell Robinson, he calls Mamluk swords "saif". The bottom two images are from Artzi, they show two completely different types of swords being called "saif".

[ALEX]

All these swords are Arabian saifs. What is your point?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

All these swords are Arabian saifs. What is your point?

Originally Posted by ALEX

Saif is an Arabic word for "sword", and represents Arabian/Bedouin sword type with (usually) straight blade. The one pictured above is Indian.

The point is that saif can be curved as well as straight and they can be Indian in origin.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Estcrh, Thanks for your comments, much clearer pics than mine I am afraid that I am no very good at taking photos due to vision problems. The tint you can see is brass which must have been originally silvered.
Regards
Miguel

Thanks for your answer Miguel. Your photos are good, I just used an editor to crop them and to make a panoramic image which makes it easer to see all of the photos at one time.