13th century sword - Swiss made?

[Cesare]

Ciao a tutti
Sottopongo agli amici del forum questa spada con la lama rotta.
Ha due marchi in argento, uno per lato.
Il primo è una croce con bracci uguali. Secondo Musciarelli, nel suo libro "dizionario delle armi", è il marchio di uno spadaio svizzero del 13° secolo (vedi foto - marchio n° 39).
Il secondo, una "S" in un cerchio è per me sconosciuto.
Qualcuno è in grado di aiutarmi ad identificarlo?
Molte grazie

a presto
Cesare

Hello everyone
I submit to the friends of this forum a sword with broken blade.
It has two silver marks, one on each side
The first is a cross with equal arms. According to Musciarelli, in his book "Dictionary of arms," is the mark of a Swiss swordsmith of 13th century (see photo - mark No. 39).
The second, an "S" in a circle is unknown to me.
Someone can help me to identify it?
Many thanks

Soon
Cesare

[Henk]

Cesare,

No comments at all on this one. It is not my field at all. I searched in some books to find marks, but unfortunately i cann't assist you.

If i look at the pictures it seems to me the marks are in a remarkable good condition. Too good in my opinion for a sword with that age.

I hope with this two cents opinion from me the more knowledgeable members will jump in.

Is the tip really broken? If so, some good close ups of the break could give some more information. Or is the tip not broken but is this an executioner sword?

[machinist]

I have nothing to add but this is beautiful and I enjoy your posts, Cesare.

Donald

[Valjhun]

Belissima spada, Cesare!

I don't think that is an executioner sword, as the earliest known specifically designed executioner's swords dates to the mid 16th century. In the middle ages, decapitations were executed with regular swords or axes.

Can I ask you from wich book have you posed the photo?

Grazie.

[Jim McDougall]

This seems like an Oakeshott Xa, brazil nut pommel mid 10th into late 11th century. The brazil nut more common in Central and Eastern Europe.
While Gyngell and clearly others (as noted here by Cesare) have associated this 'cross potent' (kruckenkruez, crutch cross) with suggestion of a Swiss maker c.1200, this cross was in my opinion, not a makers mark, nor restricted to Switzerland nor that time period.

These crosses were applied to sword blades, often with inscriptions, and typically invocations intended to offer talismanic protection. The practice of placing crosses on sword blades and scabbards dates much farther back.

The 'S' is another thing entirely, and may indeed be a production related mark, while quite possibly another religiously associated symbolic. The use of silver seems quite unusual, as usually these marks were inlain with iron or latten, and as noted the condition of the silver does not seem commensurate with the well aged sword overall. Perhaps the existing marks were inlaid with silver later?

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This seems like an Oakeshott Xa, brazil nut pommel mid 10th into late 11th century. The brazil nut more common in Central and Eastern Europe.
While Gyngell and clearly others (as noted here by Cesare) have associated this 'cross potent' (kruckenkruez, crutch cross) with suggestion of a Swiss maker c.1200, this cross was in my opinion, not a makers mark, nor restricted to Switzerland nor that time period.

These crosses were applied to sword blades, often with inscriptions, and typically invocations intended to offer talismanic protection. The practice of placing crosses on sword blades and scabbards dates much farther back.

The 'S' is another thing entirely, and may indeed be a production related mark, while quite possibly another religiously associated symbolic. The use of silver seems quite unusual, as usually these marks were inlain with iron or latten, and as noted the condition of the silver does not seem commensurate with the well aged sword overall. Perhaps the existing marks were inlaid with silver later?

Credo sia necessario che descriva sinteticamente la storia della fortezza.
Fu costruita nella prima metà del 1200 e le guerre iniziarono nella seconda metà del 13°secolo.
Pertanto le armi ritrovate nei pressi della fortezza sono state usate non prima. Tuttavia potrebbero aver usato armi costruite precedentemente. Non dimentichiamo che le armi e in particolare le spade, erano molto costose e non venivano dismesse perché passate di moda.
Pertanto potrebbe essere una spada costruita prima della costruzione della fortezza.
Penso tu abbia ragione sui marchi. Forse la spada proviene dal sud Europa (attuale sud Germania e Austria) e il vero marchio dello spadaio potrebbe essere la "S" in cerchio.(Musciarelli a volte non è molto attendibile)
Comunque, l'uso di metallo prezioso sulle lame di spada non è poi così raro. Molti marchi e decorazioni che ho trovato sulle lame di spade e pugnali del museo sono in argento e persino oro.

grazie
Cesare
I believe it is necessary for summarizing the history of the fortress.
It was built in the first half of 1200 and the wars began in the second half of the 13th century.
Therefore, the weapons found near the fort were not used before. They could however have used weapons made previously. Do not forget that the weapons and swords in particular, were very expensive and would not be abandoned because out of fashion.

I think you're right on the mark. Maybe the sword is from the south of Europe (now southern Germany and Austria) and the true mark of the swordsmith could be the "S" in a circle. (Musciarelli, sometimes is not very reliable)
However, the use of precious metal on the blade of the sword is not so rare. Many marks and decorations that I found on the blades of swords and daggers of the museum are silver and even gold inlaid.

thanks
Cerare

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by Henk

Cesare,

Is the tip really broken? If so, some good close ups of the break could give some more information. Or is the tip not broken but is this an executioner sword?

Ecco le foto al microscopio digitale. è realmente una frattura avvenuta all'epoca. Infatti, le superfici di frattura hanno lo stesso livello di corrosione della lama.

Here are the photos to digital microscope. Is really a fracture and occurred at the time. In fact, the fracture surfaces have the same level of corrosion of the blade.