blade identification

Green · 16th February 2023, 05:46 AM

This keris is in my opinion a combination of parts from different culture.
The sheath and pendokok look like Malaysian (probably kelantan/patani) , and the blade does not fit perfectly in this sheath. The hilt is also Malay or sumatran (?) but the blade is certainly not from the Malay world but my guess is Java based on the presence of tikel alis (which Malay blades don't have).

The pesi is thick and short which is not typical of Javanese blades (or probably shortened?)

Can anyone please confirm where this blade is from? what type ? A guess of possible age ? Should I replace the blade with a malay keris to go with this sheath and hilt?

.

rasdan · 16th February 2023, 08:42 AM

Hi Green,

I think what you meant by "not form the Malay world" is not from Peninsular Malay world? Because this type of blade is quite popular in Sumatera. Attached below is a gift from the Sultan of Inderagiri to Capt Rich Swan (I forgot the actual name) in 1649AD.

Anyhow I am curious on the shape of the rounded sirah cecak. Probably it's a Tuban sirah cecak? Maybe other forumites can shed some light on it.

David · 16th February 2023, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Can anyone please confirm where this blade is from? what type ? A guess of possible age ? Should I replace the blade with a malay keris to go with this sheath and hilt?

I agree with Rasdan that there is a strong possibility that this blade could be Sumatran. The way the tikel alis cuts so strongly into the gandik is a trait i have seen before on Sumatran keris. Also the nature of this pamor seems quite possibly Sumatran. See my example below.
Your question about replacing the blade to go with this sheath and hilt is kind of the opposite of my thinking, which always places the welfare of the blade first.
What i think when i see this it that you might want to change the SHEATH. I think, as you already noted, that this lovely hilt could possibly be acceptable for a Sumatran blade. If that is the case, it seems possible that you might have a Sumatran keris with a Sumatran hilt and what is out of place in this ensemble is the sheath, which obviously was not created for or even well fitted to the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2023, 08:10 PM

From these photos I cannot support a firm opinion on geographic locality origin for this keris blade.

I can say that it does not display the usually accepted indicators of a Tuban blade, and that the form of the tikel alis is what we consider to be an old form, but with no definite age parameters, the blumbangan appears to tend to a Pajajaran form, as does the sirah cecak.

I think I am prepared to say that it does not display indicators that would place it in Central, North or East Jawa.

In the hand it might be supportable as West Jawa/South East Sumatera.

Green · 17th February 2023, 04:54 PM

Rasdan;

Thank you . Although you said that this type of blade is quite popular in Sumatera I can't recall I've seen any . Krisdisk also did not show this type for Sumateran kerises.

David;

You're absolutely right keris is about the blade primarily. Althouh to me I can only feel the attraction of an assemble if the sheath and hilt are of very good quality.My point was that the hilt, pendokok and the sheath are all from the same region (kelantan/patani) so it is much easier for me to replace this blade with kelantan/patani blade (may be saras as the batang serunai (to use the malay /patani terminology) is quite long. For this 'sumatran/west jawa) blade it would be much harder for me to find appropriate sheath and hilt for this blade.

How is the pesi of your blade? is it thick and short as mine?

Alan;

Based on your comment that the blade is possibly West Jawa/SE Sumatera, would it be appropriate for me to put a Ceribon style hilt (one of those raksaksa type) a mendak and landrang sheath for this blade? or what is a better dress for it?

David · 17th February 2023, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

...you said that this type of blade is quite popular in Sumatera I can't recall I've seen any . Krisdisk also did not show this type for Sumateran kerises.

Can you explain further what you mean when you say "this type of blade". It does appear that the dhapur of you keris is very much the same as both the example i showed and the one Rasdan shows from the book. Though i suspect there is a good possibility that the blade in Rasdan's example may have originated in Jawa given the time it is said to be from. Jawa, as you know, had a great influence of keris development in certain areas of Sumatra. But all three of these keris share similar element regarding the style of tikel alis, gandik, blumbangan and greneng. It is a shame that the greneng on your blade is eroded, as i am sure that could tell us more. But all three of these blades have a short section pf greneng on the blade and just a single spike at the topside of the gonjo.

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2023, 09:44 PM

Green, I would be reluctant to make any recommendations on dress for this keris, the main reason being that my knowledge of the finer details of keris dress outside of the core culture is quite deficient.

This deficiency is not only due to my own interests, but also to the seemingly very great lack of consistency in identifying geographic point of origin of dress forms once we move away from The Land of Jawa.

Blades did travel all around SE Asia, so did good quality dress fittings, and once we move away from areas under the direct influence of traditional ruling entities, it seems that people had no hesitation about combining the separate parts of a complete keris in accord with their own ideas of suitability.

Then we have the dealers & collectors who combine on the basis of personal necessity or taste.

However, that said, I personally like the dress that this keris is in right now, and I have seen & handled numerous keris that have this hilt style paired to this scabbard style, the pendokok looks a bit out of place, I think, but if this keris were to be in my possession maybe that is the only thing I'd change.

To my way of thinking the only thing that really needs to be done is to fit the blade properly, and that is usually a minor job, but one requiring care & patience.

16th February 2023, 05:46 AM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	blade identification This keris is in my opinion a combination of parts from different culture. The sheath and pendokok look like Malaysian (probably kelantan/patani) , and the blade does not fit perfectly in this sheath. The hilt is also Malay or sumatran (?) but the blade is certainly not from the Malay world but my guess is Java based on the presence of tikel alis (which Malay blades don't have). The pesi is thick and short which is not typical of Javanese blades (or probably shortened?) Can anyone please confirm where this blade is from? what type ? A guess of possible age ? Should I replace the blade with a malay keris to go with this sheath and hilt? . Attached Images

16th February 2023, 08:42 AM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Green, I think what you meant by "not form the Malay world" is not from Peninsular Malay world? Because this type of blade is quite popular in Sumatera. Attached below is a gift from the Sultan of Inderagiri to Capt Rich Swan (I forgot the actual name) in 1649AD. Anyhow I am curious on the shape of the rounded sirah cecak. Probably it's a Tuban sirah cecak? Maybe other forumites can shed some light on it. Attached Images

16th February 2023, 08:10 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	From these photos I cannot support a firm opinion on geographic locality origin for this keris blade. I can say that it does not display the usually accepted indicators of a Tuban blade, and that the form of the tikel alis is what we consider to be an old form, but with no definite age parameters, the blumbangan appears to tend to a Pajajaran form, as does the sirah cecak. I think I am prepared to say that it does not display indicators that would place it in Central, North or East Jawa. In the hand it might be supportable as West Jawa/South East Sumatera.

17th February 2023, 04:54 PM	#5
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Rasdan; Thank you . Although you said that this type of blade is quite popular in Sumatera I can't recall I've seen any . Krisdisk also did not show this type for Sumateran kerises. David; You're absolutely right keris is about the blade primarily. Althouh to me I can only feel the attraction of an assemble if the sheath and hilt are of very good quality.My point was that the hilt, pendokok and the sheath are all from the same region (kelantan/patani) so it is much easier for me to replace this blade with kelantan/patani blade (may be saras as the batang serunai (to use the malay /patani terminology) is quite long. For this 'sumatran/west jawa) blade it would be much harder for me to find appropriate sheath and hilt for this blade. How is the pesi of your blade? is it thick and short as mine? Alan; Based on your comment that the blade is possibly West Jawa/SE Sumatera, would it be appropriate for me to put a Ceribon style hilt (one of those raksaksa type) a mendak and landrang sheath for this blade? or what is a better dress for it?

17th February 2023, 09:44 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Green, I would be reluctant to make any recommendations on dress for this keris, the main reason being that my knowledge of the finer details of keris dress outside of the core culture is quite deficient. This deficiency is not only due to my own interests, but also to the seemingly very great lack of consistency in identifying geographic point of origin of dress forms once we move away from The Land of Jawa. Blades did travel all around SE Asia, so did good quality dress fittings, and once we move away from areas under the direct influence of traditional ruling entities, it seems that people had no hesitation about combining the separate parts of a complete keris in accord with their own ideas of suitability. Then we have the dealers & collectors who combine on the basis of personal necessity or taste. However, that said, I personally like the dress that this keris is in right now, and I have seen & handled numerous keris that have this hilt style paired to this scabbard style, the pendokok looks a bit out of place, I think, but if this keris were to be in my possession maybe that is the only thing I'd change. To my way of thinking the only thing that really needs to be done is to fit the blade properly, and that is usually a minor job, but one requiring care & patience.