EUROPEAN BLADE PRE 1800 FOR ID

asomotif · 4th February 2019, 11:54 PM

Good evening european forumites,

I would like to have information about the origin, age and model of this blade.

It is mounted in Atjeh sikin pasangang fittings, but the blade shows european style etching as well as damast pattern.

Best regards,
Willem

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2019, 02:19 PM

While I am admittedly (and clearly) unfamiliar with the history and weapons of Indonesia and these archipelagos, I am disappointed in the lack of response so wished to at least venture suggestions here.

The basic pattern of the blade suggests obviously a cavalry sabre blade, probably East European and of the latter 18th century into early 19th. The etching style, though extremely worn and indiscernible in the photos is of course indicating an officers sword.

Without searching through references to match the interesting fuller arrangement to classify possible nationality of this blade, the key factor in its appearance in this Indonesian context is of course trade. While the Dutch predominated control in these regions, there are likely a good number of possibilities how this blade ended up in these Atjeh mounts. Only speculation by those more familiar with these trade activities and regional history can offer more viable solution.

Hopefully Willem, these people will step in with more detail.

Best regards
Jim

fernando · 8th February 2019, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am disappointed in the lack of response so wished to at least venture suggestions here....

A true disappointment would be if you didn't post your educated comments, Jim

.
Let us see whether other folks know what Willem's blade appears to be and second your entry

.

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2019, 10:41 PM

Thank you Fernando.

I checked my copy of "Edged Weapons of the Habsburg Monarchy 16th-20thc" (Konipsky & Moudry, Prague, 1991) as I felt this blade resembled one of East Europe, and found two examples which seem plausibly connected.

The one with the coat of arms on the blade ( p.43 ; #14) is from Hungarian hussars c. 1751-54.

The other is Austrian light cavalry first half of 19th c.

What drew me to these types were the multiple fullers in the distal half of the blade, while the beginning of the blade is of hollow ground form. With these two blades, the later (19th c,) form has three fullers.....however the style of etching seems more in line with this example Willem has.

The earlier blade seems to be in line with the fuller pattern of Willem's but this type etching inconsistant.

There were of course many variants, and these blades were typically from Styria. According to some notable experts, Hungary did not have blade making centers but of course it was then part of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

These blades were often found used in shashkas in the Caucusus, and were highly favored in Arabia and other regions, so there are any number of ways they may have entered trade networks which interacted with those of Indonesia.

I hope this will be of some help Willem, and I of course look forward to views of others with other information. In any case, a most interesting example with a very unusual blade in this context.

Victrix · 9th February 2019, 11:38 AM

I think Jim is right in suggesting this is likely a trade blade in the style of Eastern Europe or Austro-Hungary, commonly used in Arabia or the Caucasus

I had a look in Eduard Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons (1969) and found a number of similar 18thC blades from the Habsburg monarchy, with the initially hollow ground blade followed by two fullers. But these were either straight cavalry broad swords or curved hussar sabres. The sabres illustrated in the book are more curved with a more pronounced hatchet point, and fullers end in unequal lengths.

Identification is further complicated, as Jim mentions, in that the etching is very worn and indiscernible in the photos. But it suggests that the blade had been used and was intended to be recycled.

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2019, 09:29 PM

Thank you Victrix. The Wagner reference is a wonderful one! and I have relied on it heavily for many years, in fact it was probably among my first books back when it first came out (1967).

The fact that this blade is so worn, suggests it was not necessarily a 'trade' blade, which would have been effectively 'blanks' or produced for specific markets. A worn cavalry officers blade from the suggested origins would have come into this Indonesian context through means outside such networks, suggesting this to be more of a 'one off' kind of situation. Perhaps a personally owned old sword or blade which was traded or sold to someone either bound for Indonesia or already there.

If there was some colonial presence of the nation from which this blade had provenance, then this amalgamation into local hilt form would be understandable, but as far as I know this is not the case here.

Truly an anomaly, but whether or not this marraige of blade into atypical hilt is from a historical situation or a modern contrivance is hard to say.
Interesting conundrum!

8th February 2019, 10:41 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Thank you Fernando. I checked my copy of "Edged Weapons of the Habsburg Monarchy 16th-20thc" (Konipsky & Moudry, Prague, 1991) as I felt this blade resembled one of East Europe, and found two examples which seem plausibly connected. The one with the coat of arms on the blade ( p.43 ; #14) is from Hungarian hussars c. 1751-54. The other is Austrian light cavalry first half of 19th c. What drew me to these types were the multiple fullers in the distal half of the blade, while the beginning of the blade is of hollow ground form. With these two blades, the later (19th c,) form has three fullers.....however the style of etching seems more in line with this example Willem has. The earlier blade seems to be in line with the fuller pattern of Willem's but this type etching inconsistant. There were of course many variants, and these blades were typically from Styria. According to some notable experts, Hungary did not have blade making centers but of course it was then part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. These blades were often found used in shashkas in the Caucusus, and were highly favored in Arabia and other regions, so there are any number of ways they may have entered trade networks which interacted with those of Indonesia. I hope this will be of some help Willem, and I of course look forward to views of others with other information. In any case, a most interesting example with a very unusual blade in this context. Attached Images

9th February 2019, 11:38 AM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 710	I think Jim is right in suggesting this is likely a trade blade in the style of Eastern Europe or Austro-Hungary, commonly used in Arabia or the Caucasus I had a look in Eduard Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons (1969) and found a number of similar 18thC blades from the Habsburg monarchy, with the initially hollow ground blade followed by two fullers. But these were either straight cavalry broad swords or curved hussar sabres. The sabres illustrated in the book are more curved with a more pronounced hatchet point, and fullers end in unequal lengths. Identification is further complicated, as Jim mentions, in that the etching is very worn and indiscernible in the photos. But it suggests that the blade had been used and was intended to be recycled. Last edited by Victrix; 9th February 2019 at 11:56 AM.

4th February 2019, 11:54 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	EUROPEAN BLADE PRE 1800 FOR ID Good evening european forumites, I would like to have information about the origin, age and model of this blade. It is mounted in Atjeh sikin pasangang fittings, but the blade shows european style etching as well as damast pattern. Best regards, Willem Attached Images

8th February 2019, 02:19 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	While I am admittedly (and clearly) unfamiliar with the history and weapons of Indonesia and these archipelagos, I am disappointed in the lack of response so wished to at least venture suggestions here. The basic pattern of the blade suggests obviously a cavalry sabre blade, probably East European and of the latter 18th century into early 19th. The etching style, though extremely worn and indiscernible in the photos is of course indicating an officers sword. Without searching through references to match the interesting fuller arrangement to classify possible nationality of this blade, the key factor in its appearance in this Indonesian context is of course trade. While the Dutch predominated control in these regions, there are likely a good number of possibilities how this blade ended up in these Atjeh mounts. Only speculation by those more familiar with these trade activities and regional history can offer more viable solution. Hopefully Willem, these people will step in with more detail. Best regards Jim

9th February 2019, 09:29 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Thank you Victrix. The Wagner reference is a wonderful one! and I have relied on it heavily for many years, in fact it was probably among my first books back when it first came out (1967). The fact that this blade is so worn, suggests it was not necessarily a 'trade' blade, which would have been effectively 'blanks' or produced for specific markets. A worn cavalry officers blade from the suggested origins would have come into this Indonesian context through means outside such networks, suggesting this to be more of a 'one off' kind of situation. Perhaps a personally owned old sword or blade which was traded or sold to someone either bound for Indonesia or already there. If there was some colonial presence of the nation from which this blade had provenance, then this amalgamation into local hilt form would be understandable, but as far as I know this is not the case here. Truly an anomaly, but whether or not this marraige of blade into atypical hilt is from a historical situation or a modern contrivance is hard to say. Interesting conundrum!