Spears for discussion

Royston · 2nd September 2015, 10:40 AM

A couple of recent purchases which I am told came from a Dutch collection.

Both are large

First is 91 ins or 2.31 m long with a 12ins or 30 cm head.
The wicker decoration is approx 27 1/2 ins or 70cm long.
Shaft appears to be some sort of palm wood.

The second one is 84 ins or 213 cm long with a massive 18 ins or 46 cm head.
Shaft is bamboo with a hard gum-like substance at the top by the head.

Dealer said that they are from the Phillipines, but came from a Dutch family who lived in Indonesia for a long time.

All opinions are welcome.

Thanks
Roy

Tim Simmons · 2nd September 2015, 05:00 PM

From one of the tribal groups in Assam????

colin henshaw · 3rd September 2015, 09:13 AM

Its probably just coincidence... but the plaited fibre strip decoration to the spear on the left, is very similar to that found on Amazonian clubs etc.

VANDOO · 3rd September 2015, 03:52 PM

THE SHAPE OF THE SPEAR BLADES DO REMIND ME OF THE NAGA SPEARS OF ASSAM OR SOME OF THE SPEAR BLADES FROM BORNEO. WOVEN FIBER OFTEN LOOKS THE SAME THE WORLD OVER AND DOES REMIND ME OF SOUTH AMERICAN WORK AS WELL AS SOME DAYAK WORK I HAVE SEEN. THE DAYAK SPEAR BLADES ARE OFTEN QUITE A BIT LARGER THAN THE NAGA SPEAR BLADES. NICE SPEARS WHERE EVER THEY ARE FROM.

Royston · 5th September 2015, 11:32 AM

Thanks Gents

Appart from a few very obvious ones, Masaii for instance, it would appear that spears are not particularly easy to identify.
I bought quite a few spears from the same dealer and all the others are very typical of S.E Asia. As ( according to him ) they all came from the same source I will continue to search in that direction.

Tim and Vandoo, yes the blades do look a bit Assam-like and there are photos of Naga spears with woven fibre but I have not seen one in real life.

Colin and Vandoo, I see what you mean about the pattern but I really do not think that they are S.American.

Anyone else got any ideas.
Regards
Roy

Gavin Nugent · 8th September 2015, 05:03 AM

Odd ball spears Royston, mysteries that keep us all interested.

I have heard on more than one occasion about Mysterious collections and mountains of weapons that steadily come forward....I'd be pushing for more info about the provenance, have the dealer actually take some time and interest to extract some family history...if the weapons remain, so should documents from where the family lived and travelled... maybe with some better family history the mystery will be cracked in time

By manufacture, rather than design elements, these sit well in the Philippines, well to the north.

Of the Naga spear types I hold in my collections, a few are bound. This is the typical Naga rattan binding found on their spears.
Also, of particular note should be that Naga spears are all socket type, at least those published and in museums are...

A good clear macro lense shot of the rattan/cane binging would be beneficial too. As noted above the pattern looks distinctly Amazon, both the colours and pattern...a good clear shot should I feel conclude that the materials and method used for the binding are distinctly Amazon, i.e; the long vertical light coloured pieces secured with the darker wrapping....how the metal tip came to be....???

Gavin

Tim Simmons · 8th September 2015, 09:37 AM

This might muddy the waters a little more or could point towards the Philippines and Asia. The blades do have some shape similarity to Philippine spears. The weave does have patterns like Amazon work but so do these clubs from Micronesia. The metal could come from colonial rulers. Pictures taken in the Berlin ethnographic collection. I have seen a metal Amazon spear at the British museum, it had no weave and the blade was less stylistic not following a traditional form. The haft was a dark brown heavy wood, I think there might have been a few feathers on it but sure it was perhaps a decade ago. It was in a special exhibition in the great hall.

Gavin Nugent · 8th September 2015, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The weave does have patterns like Amazon work but so do these clubs from Micronesia.

Hi Tim,

The clubs certainly do have the similar ilk to the pattern on the spear.

...but...

However, despite the contrasting materials, the method of weave and materials do differ...I can only say this based on the examples I have held and those still within my personal collection, the ones you have seen.

From what I can see, without a clearer image being provided, is that the spear shown and the Amazon clubs I have had experience with all have the light coloured round grass like material running vertically which are then woven with the flat darker material to form the patterns.

These clubs you present display a different weaving with which both colours are the flat type running in different different directions.

This is the simplest ID I have found to ID Amazon binding.

Gavin

PS, did the three books arrive safely?

Tim Simmons · 8th September 2015, 12:09 PM

It would not surprise me if these are Dayak or other Borneo people. Just Google Borneo Dayak spears images and very similar blades indeed can be found. Weaving like this is not uncommon in places even PNG.

2nd September 2015, 10:40 AM	#1
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Spears for discussion A couple of recent purchases which I am told came from a Dutch collection. Both are large First is 91 ins or 2.31 m long with a 12ins or 30 cm head. The wicker decoration is approx 27 1/2 ins or 70cm long. Shaft appears to be some sort of palm wood. The second one is 84 ins or 213 cm long with a massive 18 ins or 46 cm head. Shaft is bamboo with a hard gum-like substance at the top by the head. Dealer said that they are from the Phillipines, but came from a Dutch family who lived in Indonesia for a long time. All opinions are welcome. Thanks Roy Attached Images

5th September 2015, 11:32 AM	#5
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Not Moro Then ? Thanks Gents Appart from a few very obvious ones, Masaii for instance, it would appear that spears are not particularly easy to identify. I bought quite a few spears from the same dealer and all the others are very typical of S.E Asia. As ( according to him ) they all came from the same source I will continue to search in that direction. Tim and Vandoo, yes the blades do look a bit Assam-like and there are photos of Naga spears with woven fibre but I have not seen one in real life. Colin and Vandoo, I see what you mean about the pattern but I really do not think that they are S.American. Anyone else got any ideas. Regards Roy

8th September 2015, 05:03 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Odd ball spears Royston, mysteries that keep us all interested. I have heard on more than one occasion about Mysterious collections and mountains of weapons that steadily come forward....I'd be pushing for more info about the provenance, have the dealer actually take some time and interest to extract some family history...if the weapons remain, so should documents from where the family lived and travelled... maybe with some better family history the mystery will be cracked in time By manufacture, rather than design elements, these sit well in the Philippines, well to the north. Of the Naga spear types I hold in my collections, a few are bound. This is the typical Naga rattan binding found on their spears. Also, of particular note should be that Naga spears are all socket type, at least those published and in museums are... A good clear macro lense shot of the rattan/cane binging would be beneficial too. As noted above the pattern looks distinctly Amazon, both the colours and pattern...a good clear shot should I feel conclude that the materials and method used for the binding are distinctly Amazon, i.e; the long vertical light coloured pieces secured with the darker wrapping....how the metal tip came to be....??? Gavin Attached Images Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 8th September 2015 at 05:33 AM.

8th September 2015, 09:37 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This might muddy the waters a little more or could point towards the Philippines and Asia. The blades do have some shape similarity to Philippine spears. The weave does have patterns like Amazon work but so do these clubs from Micronesia. The metal could come from colonial rulers. Pictures taken in the Berlin ethnographic collection. I have seen a metal Amazon spear at the British museum, it had no weave and the blade was less stylistic not following a traditional form. The haft was a dark brown heavy wood, I think there might have been a few feathers on it but sure it was perhaps a decade ago. It was in a special exhibition in the great hall. Attached Images

8th September 2015, 12:09 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It would not surprise me if these are Dayak or other Borneo people. Just Google Borneo Dayak spears images and very similar blades indeed can be found. Weaving like this is not uncommon in places even PNG. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 8th September 2015 at 09:08 PM.

2nd September 2015, 05:00 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	From one of the tribal groups in Assam????

3rd September 2015, 09:13 AM	#3
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Its probably just coincidence... but the plaited fibre strip decoration to the spear on the left, is very similar to that found on Amazonian clubs etc.

3rd September 2015, 03:52 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE SHAPE OF THE SPEAR BLADES DO REMIND ME OF THE NAGA SPEARS OF ASSAM OR SOME OF THE SPEAR BLADES FROM BORNEO. WOVEN FIBER OFTEN LOOKS THE SAME THE WORLD OVER AND DOES REMIND ME OF SOUTH AMERICAN WORK AS WELL AS SOME DAYAK WORK I HAVE SEEN. THE DAYAK SPEAR BLADES ARE OFTEN QUITE A BIT LARGER THAN THE NAGA SPEAR BLADES. NICE SPEARS WHERE EVER THEY ARE FROM.