Old saber from a barn in northeastern Pennsylvania

Lee · 23rd January 2016, 08:30 PM

A friend found this saber in his grandfather's barn in northeastern Pennsylvania, probably about fifty years ago. The blade is 26¼ inches long with an overall hilted length of 36½ inches. There is a short ricasso with stamped marks - one is a W under a star within an impressed shield shape (not the teardrop as in the image below) and another much less well struck possibly with a P inside an impressed circle or oval. The opposite face of the ricasso appears to have a 'G' mark. The back of the blade is flat but it becomes sharp in the final 5½ inches. The body of the blade is mostly a wide shallowly convex fuller with a narrow bevel to the edge. The hilt is missing the guard (indeed, the hilt had been stuck back on backwards for longer than I have lived), but it is clear that there was a knuckle guard once that inserted into the pommel. The grip and pommel are covered in sheet iron which may be seen to be over a wooden core.

The blade looks to be of military type and I'll speculate later 18th to mid 19th century. I am not sure that I can place an octagonal iron clad grip, but that makes me suspect militia. So possibly something from the American Revolution up through to the War of 1812?

Your suggestions are welcomed!

ulfberth · 23rd January 2016, 08:45 PM

Hi Lee,

it looks like the French naval sabre d'abordage model 1811 or 1833, apparently it was also in use in different countries.

kind regards

Ulfberth

http://www.thepirateslair.com/9-anti...l-cutlass.html

Battara · 23rd January 2016, 09:19 PM

Lee, many of these were imported on both sides of the US Civil War.

And of course, both sides copied these styles as they made their own and well in the same war. This could easily be US therefore.

However, I am not saying this is US Civil War, and after looking at some info on Revolutionary War blades, it might better with 1812 range, like what Ulberth is suggesting?

M ELEY · 24th January 2016, 01:17 AM

As Ulfberth pointed out, this is the French boarding cutlass M1811 or 33 (so hard to tell those two apart!). Battara makes a good case for possible CW usage as well. If I had to guess, I'd say Civil War over War of 1812.

I am assuming by 'barn find' that it was hidden in the rafters or some such, versus just hanging on a hook? If it were in the South, I'd have laid odds on a Confederate piece. Like the American colonists before them fighting the Brits, times were tough and weapons scarce. Southern fighters often carried parts-swords or blacksmith made weapons into battle, such as the so called 'Dog River swords'. These weapons were often stashed in walls, under floors and in old barns to prevent them from being seized by Union troops as they made their way through the towns. I've seen swords from the Mexican War, French imported swords, etc, used by the Confeds. Being from PA, this logic doesn't quite hold, UNLESS it was a war trophy/seizure, which was also quite common. Being that it is the remnants of a naval sword, it very well could have been carried by a rebel blockade runner sailor.

From the look of it, the sword looks like it was still in use in its present form, meaning it isn't just a remnant with parts fallen off. Likewise, I don't think it's a post-war put-together made to whack cornstalks with. During the War of 1812, we weren't so desparate for weapons that we needed to fight the war (American contractors like Nathan Starr and Rose were putting out cutlasses in droves). The only final possibility is that it was a French used cutlass used by a French privateer. As a private purchase sword, it could have been a parts sword (to save on cost), made for the 1812 War (France vs Great Britiain with lots of French piracy going on). Well, anyway, my 2 cents...
Mark

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2016, 08:20 AM

Excellent catch Ulfberth! That surely does look like those French cutlasses, but anybodys guess what became of the guard.
Mark offers some compelling suggestions toward the presence of this as a possible privateer weapon, and it seems these regulation patterns often ended up becoming altered for any number of uses when out of their original context.

The absence of the large guard makes this resemble the machetes which were becoming well known in tropical colonial regions, and usually without any type of guard. French locations such as Haiti and other Caribbean locations might have been the source for such an altered sword. Being found in circumstances such as barn, garage etc. in modern times does not mean this was its location permanently. This may well have become a souvenier or carried via trade contacts which often went from these locations to American ports of call.

ulfberth · 24th January 2016, 10:08 AM

Thanks Jim,

Years ago I have owned several of these , the French versions that is, they always intrigued me in any condition.
In France you can still find them but the Napoleonic model is very rare and these swords are very popular as they are collected by Naval collectors, people who like the look of a pirate sword and the classic collectors.
They have this raw look upon them and when you hold them in your hands the balance is so great it feels like your arm got an extensions in the form of a sword, and although they look big they can be used from the wrist to.

Next time I see one I might be tempted again

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Dmitry · 6th February 2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Lee, many of these were imported on both sides of the US Civil War.

And of course, both sides copied these styles as they made their own and well in the same war. This could easily be US therefore.

I have not seen a single one.
Do you have literature references for any French cutlass purchases by either of the Confederacy or the Union?
Thanks.

23rd January 2016, 08:30 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Old saber from a barn in northeastern Pennsylvania A friend found this saber in his grandfather's barn in northeastern Pennsylvania, probably about fifty years ago. The blade is 26¼ inches long with an overall hilted length of 36½ inches. There is a short ricasso with stamped marks - one is a W under a star within an impressed shield shape (not the teardrop as in the image below) and another much less well struck possibly with a P inside an impressed circle or oval. The opposite face of the ricasso appears to have a 'G' mark. The back of the blade is flat but it becomes sharp in the final 5½ inches. The body of the blade is mostly a wide shallowly convex fuller with a narrow bevel to the edge. The hilt is missing the guard (indeed, the hilt had been stuck back on backwards for longer than I have lived), but it is clear that there was a knuckle guard once that inserted into the pommel. The grip and pommel are covered in sheet iron which may be seen to be over a wooden core. The blade looks to be of military type and I'll speculate later 18th to mid 19th century. I am not sure that I can place an octagonal iron clad grip, but that makes me suspect militia. So possibly something from the American Revolution up through to the War of 1812? Your suggestions are welcomed! Attached Images

23rd January 2016, 08:45 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hi Lee, it looks like the French naval sabre d'abordage model 1811 or 1833, apparently it was also in use in different countries. kind regards Ulfberth http://www.thepirateslair.com/9-anti...l-cutlass.html Attached Images

23rd January 2016, 09:19 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Lee, many of these were imported on both sides of the US Civil War. And of course, both sides copied these styles as they made their own and well in the same war. This could easily be US therefore. However, I am not saying this is US Civil War, and after looking at some info on Revolutionary War blades, it might better with 1812 range, like what Ulberth is suggesting? Last edited by Battara; 23rd January 2016 at 09:36 PM.

24th January 2016, 01:17 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	As Ulfberth pointed out, this is the French boarding cutlass M1811 or 33 (so hard to tell those two apart!). Battara makes a good case for possible CW usage as well. If I had to guess, I'd say Civil War over War of 1812. I am assuming by 'barn find' that it was hidden in the rafters or some such, versus just hanging on a hook? If it were in the South, I'd have laid odds on a Confederate piece. Like the American colonists before them fighting the Brits, times were tough and weapons scarce. Southern fighters often carried parts-swords or blacksmith made weapons into battle, such as the so called 'Dog River swords'. These weapons were often stashed in walls, under floors and in old barns to prevent them from being seized by Union troops as they made their way through the towns. I've seen swords from the Mexican War, French imported swords, etc, used by the Confeds. Being from PA, this logic doesn't quite hold, UNLESS it was a war trophy/seizure, which was also quite common. Being that it is the remnants of a naval sword, it very well could have been carried by a rebel blockade runner sailor. From the look of it, the sword looks like it was still in use in its present form, meaning it isn't just a remnant with parts fallen off. Likewise, I don't think it's a post-war put-together made to whack cornstalks with. During the War of 1812, we weren't so desparate for weapons that we needed to fight the war (American contractors like Nathan Starr and Rose were putting out cutlasses in droves). The only final possibility is that it was a French used cutlass used by a French privateer. As a private purchase sword, it could have been a parts sword (to save on cost), made for the 1812 War (France vs Great Britiain with lots of French piracy going on). Well, anyway, my 2 cents... Mark

24th January 2016, 08:20 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Excellent catch Ulfberth! That surely does look like those French cutlasses, but anybodys guess what became of the guard. Mark offers some compelling suggestions toward the presence of this as a possible privateer weapon, and it seems these regulation patterns often ended up becoming altered for any number of uses when out of their original context. The absence of the large guard makes this resemble the machetes which were becoming well known in tropical colonial regions, and usually without any type of guard. French locations such as Haiti and other Caribbean locations might have been the source for such an altered sword. Being found in circumstances such as barn, garage etc. in modern times does not mean this was its location permanently. This may well have become a souvenier or carried via trade contacts which often went from these locations to American ports of call.

24th January 2016, 10:08 AM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Thanks Jim, Years ago I have owned several of these , the French versions that is, they always intrigued me in any condition. In France you can still find them but the Napoleonic model is very rare and these swords are very popular as they are collected by Naval collectors, people who like the look of a pirate sword and the classic collectors. They have this raw look upon them and when you hold them in your hands the balance is so great it feels like your arm got an extensions in the form of a sword, and although they look big they can be used from the wrist to. Next time I see one I might be tempted again Kind regards Ulfberth