Early Ottoman/Eastern European Sabre for Comment

TVV · 6th July 2016, 07:59 PM

A friend of mine in Bulgaria acquired this sword, which to me looks like it has a potential to be somewhat early, possibly as early as 17th century. The blade appears to be European - Styria perhaps, based on the markings? The hilt is walrus ivory decorated with silver nails at the pommel and by the guard.

What would you say the origin is: Ottoman or Central/Eastern European? Do you agree with the 17th century dating, or do you think this sword is later? I look forward to your comments.

Thank you,
Teodor

estcrh · 6th July 2016, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

A friend of mine in Bulgaria acquired this sword, which to me looks like it has a potential to be somewhat early, possibly as early as 17th century. The blade appears to be European - Styria perhaps, based on the markings? The hilt is walrus ivory decorated with silver nails at the pommel and by the guard.

What would you say the origin is: Ottoman or Central/Eastern European? Do you agree with the 17th century dating, or do you think this sword is later? I look forward to your comments.

Thank you,
Teodor

To me it looks like an Eastern European sword based on the Ottoman "pala", the short version of the Ottoman kilij. I would not think it is extremely old, lets see what other people have to say.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th July 2016, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

A friend of mine in Bulgaria acquired this sword, which to me looks like it has a potential to be somewhat early, possibly as early as 17th century. The blade appears to be European - Styria perhaps, based on the markings? The hilt is walrus ivory decorated with silver nails at the pommel and by the guard.

What would you say the origin is: Ottoman or Central/Eastern European? Do you agree with the 17th century dating, or do you think this sword is later? I look forward to your comments.

Thank you,
Teodor

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th July 2016, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

A friend of mine in Bulgaria acquired this sword, which to me looks like it has a potential to be somewhat early, possibly as early as 17th century. The blade appears to be European - Styria perhaps, based on the markings? The hilt is walrus ivory decorated with silver nails at the pommel and by the guard.

What would you say the origin is: Ottoman or Central/Eastern European? Do you agree with the 17th century dating, or do you think this sword is later? I look forward to your comments.

Thank you,
Teodor

This is quite interesting and I wondered if this was a cutlass ...The blade has the repeat design of the hogs back/ eyelash marks ... I also pondered if this was Hungarian?... The closest I can get to the form is Hungarian Magnat Sabre placed for comparison.

Oliver Pinchot · 6th July 2016, 11:41 PM

It's Ottoman; it was probably made in Western Asia, but Eastern Europe is as likely. The grips are a recognizable form, generally dating from the last quarter of the 17th century to the first quarter of the 18th. Styrian blades are not uncommon in these pieces. There are comparable examples in a number of European collections, notably the Turkebeute in the Badisches Landesmuseum in Karlsruhe. Most of the weapons and accoutrements there were acquired from the Ottoman camp, following the Ottoman Siege of Vienna in 1683.

Shorter, broader blades are found on many Ottoman swords intended for use at sea. These display a variety of hilt types, indicating they were popular for an extended period.

Jim McDougall · 7th July 2016, 12:36 AM

Not disagreeing, but just curious.
While the scabbard is certainly not the defining factor in identification or assessment of a sword, aren't these 'baldric' type mounts mindful of the Arabian sa'if noted as Hahdramauti by Elgood? as well as what seems like the aghrab in the scabbard throat mount. These mounts were noted to have been produced in Hyderabad in India, and there seem to have been profound connections over considerable time.

If I have understood correctly, earlier blades are much stouter as with this one, and certainly the 'sickle' marks suggest Styria, of the key suppliers to Eastern Europe. Interestingly, Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre") it seems notes the chevron style motif on grips to karabela examples (I think Lvov, but cant recall for sure).

The linear motif using smaller 'sickle' (hogs back) arcs seems to have occurred in some cases on swords in India, and via unclear associations appear on certain Caucasian blades (Ataghi?). I have seen these on some Khevsur pranguli. I have always considered influences from India may have been reflected in the Caucusus in degree.

Is it possible this might be something produced in India, perhaps for Arabia (regions under Ottoman influence) and recalling Eastern European hilt style ? According to Elgood, the Arabs did highly regard Hungarian blades and swords.

Gavin Nugent · 7th July 2016, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Not disagreeing, but just curious.
While the scabbard is certainly not the defining factor in identification or assessment of a sword, aren't these 'baldric' type mounts mindful of the Arabian sa'if noted as Hahdramauti by Elgood? as well as what seems like the aghrab in the scabbard throat mount. These mounts were noted to have been produced in Hyderabad in India, and there seem to have been profound connections over considerable time.

If I have understood correctly, earlier blades are much stouter as with this one, and certainly the 'sickle' marks suggest Styria, of the key suppliers to Eastern Europe. Interestingly, Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre") it seems notes the chevron style motif on grips to karabela examples (I think Lvov, but cant recall for sure).

The linear motif using smaller 'sickle' (hogs back) arcs seems to have occurred in some cases on swords in India, and via unclear associations appear on certain Caucasian blades (Ataghi?). I have seen these on some Khevsur pranguli. I have always considered influences from India may have been reflected in the Caucusus in degree.

Is it possible this might be something produced in India, perhaps for Arabia (regions under Ottoman influence) and recalling Eastern European hilt style ? According to Elgood, the Arabs did highly regard Hungarian blades and swords.

Jim,

An interesting breakdown.

I have seen similar sword types, in so far as form rather than specific detail, in Yemeni circles too.

Gavin

TVV · 7th July 2016, 07:48 AM

Gentlemen, thank you for the responses. Exploring a Southern Yemen connection is interesting. The placement of the scabbard rings do indeed suggest it was worn on a baldric, and since the three leaf motif on the scabbard matches the guard, I suspect this was the original scabbard. I personally am not sure I see an aghrab, but I will post a better picture of the scabbard mouth.

The hilt is probably the key feature to determine where this sword was used within the Ottoman Empire. I am posting some pictures of similar hilts. One is from Top Kapi and shows a sword with an Ottoman blade (the one at the top). The other one is of a much finer sword from the Bayern Ingolstadt Museum with a hilt and cross guard of similar form, again with an Ottoman blade. Not sure if it is part of the Turkenbeute from the Second Siege of Vienna or not.

Sincerely,
Teodor

6th July 2016, 07:59 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	Early Ottoman/Eastern European Sabre for Comment A friend of mine in Bulgaria acquired this sword, which to me looks like it has a potential to be somewhat early, possibly as early as 17th century. The blade appears to be European - Styria perhaps, based on the markings? The hilt is walrus ivory decorated with silver nails at the pommel and by the guard. What would you say the origin is: Ottoman or Central/Eastern European? Do you agree with the 17th century dating, or do you think this sword is later? I look forward to your comments. Thank you, Teodor Attached Images

7th July 2016, 07:48 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	Gentlemen, thank you for the responses. Exploring a Southern Yemen connection is interesting. The placement of the scabbard rings do indeed suggest it was worn on a baldric, and since the three leaf motif on the scabbard matches the guard, I suspect this was the original scabbard. I personally am not sure I see an aghrab, but I will post a better picture of the scabbard mouth. The hilt is probably the key feature to determine where this sword was used within the Ottoman Empire. I am posting some pictures of similar hilts. One is from Top Kapi and shows a sword with an Ottoman blade (the one at the top). The other one is of a much finer sword from the Bayern Ingolstadt Museum with a hilt and cross guard of similar form, again with an Ottoman blade. Not sure if it is part of the Turkenbeute from the Second Siege of Vienna or not. Sincerely, Teodor Attached Images

6th July 2016, 11:41 PM	#5
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	It's Ottoman; it was probably made in Western Asia, but Eastern Europe is as likely. The grips are a recognizable form, generally dating from the last quarter of the 17th century to the first quarter of the 18th. Styrian blades are not uncommon in these pieces. There are comparable examples in a number of European collections, notably the Turkebeute in the Badisches Landesmuseum in Karlsruhe. Most of the weapons and accoutrements there were acquired from the Ottoman camp, following the Ottoman Siege of Vienna in 1683. Shorter, broader blades are found on many Ottoman swords intended for use at sea. These display a variety of hilt types, indicating they were popular for an extended period.

7th July 2016, 12:36 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Not disagreeing, but just curious. While the scabbard is certainly not the defining factor in identification or assessment of a sword, aren't these 'baldric' type mounts mindful of the Arabian sa'if noted as Hahdramauti by Elgood? as well as what seems like the aghrab in the scabbard throat mount. These mounts were noted to have been produced in Hyderabad in India, and there seem to have been profound connections over considerable time. If I have understood correctly, earlier blades are much stouter as with this one, and certainly the 'sickle' marks suggest Styria, of the key suppliers to Eastern Europe. Interestingly, Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre") it seems notes the chevron style motif on grips to karabela examples (I think Lvov, but cant recall for sure). The linear motif using smaller 'sickle' (hogs back) arcs seems to have occurred in some cases on swords in India, and via unclear associations appear on certain Caucasian blades (Ataghi?). I have seen these on some Khevsur pranguli. I have always considered influences from India may have been reflected in the Caucusus in degree. Is it possible this might be something produced in India, perhaps for Arabia (regions under Ottoman influence) and recalling Eastern European hilt style ? According to Elgood, the Arabs did highly regard Hungarian blades and swords.