Keris for comment

Fheng · 28th September 2012, 06:09 AM

I don't know much about this keris so any ideas on where it's from and when it was made would be much appreciated.

David · 28th September 2012, 07:30 PM

Well, the dress is obviously of Bali origin, but the blade itself seems to me to come from elsewhere. Is there a tight fit between blade and sheath? Some better photos would be helpful. Maybe get some light on the gandik side of the blade.

Jean · 28th September 2012, 08:44 PM

My personal guess would be: sheath & hilt from Lombok and blade from Sumbawa, but it is difficult to be sure from the pictures and the condition of the blade (unstained).
Regards

David · 28th September 2012, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

My personal guess would be: sheath & hilt from Lombok and blade from Sumbawa, but it is difficult to be sure from the pictures and the condition of the blade (unstained).
Regards

Hi Jean. Generally when i refer to a keris (or keris dress) as Bali i also leave the door open for the Lombok possibility since for the most part the major influence on Lombok keris is Bali. However, i am curious what elements of this keris dress lead you to more specifically guess at Lombak and even more curious what specific elements of this blade lead you to think Sumbawa.

A. G. Maisey · 28th September 2012, 10:44 PM

Lombok is always a good guess for something that doesn't quite fit into Bali, or generic Bugis, or Jawa.

There were settlers there from all these places, Bali colonised Lombok, the Bugis people established more than a foothold, and people from Jawa came to there too. They all kept their own style of keris --- and I guess other cultural appurtenances--- and after all the conflict died down there was a good bit of swapping and changing blade and dress styles.

I've handled blades that except for size looked 100% Jawa, the Lombok ones were bigger, but these were definitely Lombok origin. Often Lombok/Bali is simply impossible to differentiate, in fact the Raja of Badung (Den Pasar) had a number of Lombok/Bali keris as part of his regalia.

Bugis keris have certain generic characteristics, but if you mixed up 100 generic Bugis blades I doubt that anybody could identify the point of origin of those blades.

I once made a fool of myself by declaring unequivocally that a particular blade from a world famous museum was not from Palembang, but rather from Mataram. Turned out that it had provenance that made it very difficult to believe it could be from anywhere other than Palembang.

Another thing too:- smiths moved around. If work was slack in one place , they'd move to somewhere else. The chronicle of the Line of Descent of the Empus of the Land of Jawa attributed to Pangeran Wijil is full of the movements, marriages and children of these itinerant smiths.

I have a particular type of very rare Moro style keris that comes from Northern Borneo, it was actually the state execution keris of Brunei, it is of 100% Madura workmanship, and Madurese smiths were very widespread across S.E.Asia. Why? Because Madura was and still is, a pretty hard place to earn a living.

I'm mostly pretty comfortable in identifying Javanese and Balinese blades --- I regard Madura as a part of Jawa--- I'm not all that bad on Lombok blades, other people are pretty good with Peninsula blades, but once we move outside these areas I do really think it becomes a bit of a lottery to try to pin specific origin on generic blades.We can't rely at all on dress to help ID a blade, blades moved from one dress style to another with great regularity. A few years ago it was not at all unusual to come across Balinese and Bugis blades in Javanese dress, old Javanese dress that had been made for the blade. Why? Because the rulers and lords in Jawa used to employ these people as guards and soldiers.

There are a lot of traps in trying to ID non-mainstream blades.

Fheng · 29th September 2012, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Is there a tight fit between blade and sheath? Some better photos would be helpful. Maybe get some light on the gandik side of the blade.

The blade fits very tightly in to the sheath (almost too tight).
The length of the blade is 350mm so just under 14 inches.

I can take some more photographs in a few days and post them here.

After I purchased this keris I removed the stain not knowing how the blade should look. The steel it's made from is very eye catching. It has a very attractive silvery glow and I think it looks better this way. I don't mean to offend anyone , I know the keris is a very spiritual object and has a great history in many cultures, so please excuse me if I did.

Thanks for all the replies

Jean · 29th September 2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Jean. Generally when i refer to a keris (or keris dress) as Bali i also leave the door open for the Lombok possibility since for the most part the major influence on Lombok keris is Bali. However, i am curious what elements of this keris dress lead you to more specifically guess at Lombak and even more curious what specific elements of this blade lead you to think Sumbawa.

Hi David,
Alan gave an excellent and general reply, my guess is based on the following observations:
. The sheath and hilt are in rustic style, the sheath is short, and the rattan binder on the gandar looks rather from Lombok than Bali.
. Regarding the blade, I see Bugis Sumbawa features from the rustic shape and ganja style, the triangular pamor pattern (barely) visible at the base, the roughly applied pamor, and mostly the specific style of the kembang kacang and lambe gajah which look "carved out" from the gandik. I won't disclaim that this blade could be from Lombok also but in regional Bugis style.
Other opinions are welcome

Jean · 29th September 2012, 11:07 AM

Another Bali/ Lombok kris with a regional Bugis style blade with 15 luks, look at the kembang kacang and lambe gajah especially.
Regards

David · 29th September 2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Regarding the blade, I see Bugis Sumbawa features from the rustic shape and ganja style, the triangular pamor pattern (barely) visible at the base, the roughly applied pamor, and mostly the specific style of the kembang kacang and lambe gajah which look "carved out" from the gandik. I won't disclaim that this blade could be from Lombok also but in regional Bugis style.

Thanks for your response Jean. My question then is aren't these traits specific to Bugis keris in general? What am i trying to get at is what specifies a Sumbawa keris. I have seen all sorts of blade profiles presented on this forum as Sumbawa and have never seen us come to any kind of agreement as to what defines these blades that are supposed to be of this origin.

This is not to say that the blade is not Sumbawa, but i am trying to understand how i might be able to accurately identify such blades in the future and distinguish it from Bugis style blades from other regions.
I do agree with you sheath origin. Lombok was always on my radar.

28th September 2012, 06:09 AM	#1
Fheng Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: New Zealand Posts: 14	Keris for comment I don't know much about this keris so any ideas on where it's from and when it was made would be much appreciated. Attached Images

29th September 2012, 11:07 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Another Bali/ Lombok kris with a regional Bugis style blade with 15 luks, look at the kembang kacang and lambe gajah especially. Regards Attached Images

28th September 2012, 07:30 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Well, the dress is obviously of Bali origin, but the blade itself seems to me to come from elsewhere. Is there a tight fit between blade and sheath? Some better photos would be helpful. Maybe get some light on the gandik side of the blade.

28th September 2012, 08:44 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	My personal guess would be: sheath & hilt from Lombok and blade from Sumbawa, but it is difficult to be sure from the pictures and the condition of the blade (unstained). Regards

28th September 2012, 10:44 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Lombok is always a good guess for something that doesn't quite fit into Bali, or generic Bugis, or Jawa. There were settlers there from all these places, Bali colonised Lombok, the Bugis people established more than a foothold, and people from Jawa came to there too. They all kept their own style of keris --- and I guess other cultural appurtenances--- and after all the conflict died down there was a good bit of swapping and changing blade and dress styles. I've handled blades that except for size looked 100% Jawa, the Lombok ones were bigger, but these were definitely Lombok origin. Often Lombok/Bali is simply impossible to differentiate, in fact the Raja of Badung (Den Pasar) had a number of Lombok/Bali keris as part of his regalia. Bugis keris have certain generic characteristics, but if you mixed up 100 generic Bugis blades I doubt that anybody could identify the point of origin of those blades. I once made a fool of myself by declaring unequivocally that a particular blade from a world famous museum was not from Palembang, but rather from Mataram. Turned out that it had provenance that made it very difficult to believe it could be from anywhere other than Palembang. Another thing too:- smiths moved around. If work was slack in one place , they'd move to somewhere else. The chronicle of the Line of Descent of the Empus of the Land of Jawa attributed to Pangeran Wijil is full of the movements, marriages and children of these itinerant smiths. I have a particular type of very rare Moro style keris that comes from Northern Borneo, it was actually the state execution keris of Brunei, it is of 100% Madura workmanship, and Madurese smiths were very widespread across S.E.Asia. Why? Because Madura was and still is, a pretty hard place to earn a living. I'm mostly pretty comfortable in identifying Javanese and Balinese blades --- I regard Madura as a part of Jawa--- I'm not all that bad on Lombok blades, other people are pretty good with Peninsula blades, but once we move outside these areas I do really think it becomes a bit of a lottery to try to pin specific origin on generic blades.We can't rely at all on dress to help ID a blade, blades moved from one dress style to another with great regularity. A few years ago it was not at all unusual to come across Balinese and Bugis blades in Javanese dress, old Javanese dress that had been made for the blade. Why? Because the rulers and lords in Jawa used to employ these people as guards and soldiers. There are a lot of traps in trying to ID non-mainstream blades.