A question about boarding pikes

M ELEY · 16th April 2009, 01:14 PM

I recently acquired what I hope to be a boarding pike. Yes, it was an ebay buy from several months ago and billed as an English pike. It has a nice wormy ash haft shaved smooth, which I understand was a common practice (the other being the black primer/coating). The head on it doesn't have langets as some did, but because I think this piece is either early American or Colonial Spanish, this lack of langet is typical. The head is diamond-shaped dark iron with a short neck marked with a spiral pattern and some "X's" to the base of the collar. Old museum number to haft. Here is my question and paranoid worry... This piece sort of reminds me of some African spears I have seen, especially with the X markings. There are certainly cononial decorations with this pattern as well, of course, but it did bother me to see the similarities. The problem is, once again as with many of these weapon patterns, pikes came in all manner of shapes, sizes. There are very primitive pieces and obviously nicer styles, sooooo...
How might one determine if this truly is a boarding pike? Does anyone have any examples of pikes from the Spanish colonies? Do African spears use wormy ash for hafts?? (I wouldn't think so). Mine measures approx 68-70". Is this the common length for any spears, Spanish lances or other weapons that could be construed as a pike? Just curious- thanks!
Mark

fernando · 16th April 2009, 08:54 PM

Hi Mark,
No chance you show us pictures of your pike?
I wouldn't know about Spanish colonial versions (or any other

), but i can see that 'homeland' versions had langets, if you mean by langets the side straps that fix the socket to the haft.
Here you have the Spanish boarding pike (chuzo) model from circa 1820, with description and measurements of blade but no mention to the haft, and a later model (1870's), followed by two other variations residing at the Naval museum of Madrid, being one with two heads. Haft lengths on the classic versions are 1,76 mt. and 1,96 mt. The double headed one is exceptionaly short, with 1 metre. no mention to what type of wood was used in any of them.
I hope this is usefull ... at all

Fernando

.

fernando · 16th April 2009, 08:56 PM

Model 1820 is posted in a bizarre attachment; i hope you can open it. Otherwise, just tell.
Fernando

M ELEY · 17th April 2009, 04:16 AM

Thanks, Fernando, for posting these important pics. Material on boarding pikes, much like other naval weapons, is hard to find. My piece is much more primitive, not like those made for the Sapnish naval vessels, but more like what you might see on a privateer or merchant ship in the New World. It's blade is more leaf-shaped, placing it in the pre-1800 time frame. I will attempt to post a pic soon, as I do wish to get others input on it. Thanks again for posting those pics. I've heard of, but never seen the double-headed pikes (chuzo). You'd have to be pretty daring to have to face one of them while clambering over the rail of a ship!!

celtan · 17th April 2009, 05:18 AM

Chuzos are simply metal spikes attached to poles, not necessarily a double headed lance. Often times, a bayonet attached to a pole would be called a chuzo.

They made poor weapon choices against a bayonetted musket, and were mostly used by irregulars guarding supply depots, or within cities and towns by "Urban Guards"...

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks, Fernando, for posting these important pics. Material on boarding pikes, much like other naval weapons, is hard to find. My piece is much more primitive, not like those made for the Sapnish naval vessels, but more like what you might see on a privateer or merchant ship in the New World. It's blade is more leaf-shaped, placing it in the pre-1800 time frame. I will attempt to post a pic soon, as I do wish to get others input on it. Thanks again for posting those pics. I've heard of, but never seen the double-headed pikes (chuzo). You'd have to be pretty daring to have to face one of them while clambering over the rail of a ship!!

M ELEY · 17th April 2009, 05:32 AM

Thanks for coming in on this, Celtan. I was wondering if these were more in the pike or lance catagory. I know both existed in New Spain. The point with the 4 sided head second down on Fernando's posted thread looks like the detached head of another piece that I have (not the discussed pike I started with) sans the straps. Were these points universally used on both pikes and lances by the Spanish, or were there any differences?
Will try and post pics of the pike soon...

fernando · 17th April 2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Chuzos are simply metal spikes attached to poles, not necessarily a double headed lance. Often times, a bayonet attached to a pole would be called a chuzo...

Furthermore, in a vulgarized sense, anything spiky may be called a chuço (portuguese for chuzo). Even (closed) umbrellas are often called chuços by local country people. And so are called determined agricultural implements. After all, the first pole arms that arose from and with the farmers that were mobilized to go into war, in the middle ages, were the chuços, derived from the scythe family tools.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The point with the 4 sided head second down on Fernando's posted thread looks like the detached head of another piece that I have (not the discussed pike I started with) sans the straps. Were these points universally used on both pikes and lances by the Spanish, or were there any differences?

For the little i have seen, i am convinced that all round, three sided and four sided variations, with and without side straps, were used in pikes and lances by many a nation. Experts may confirm.
One thing i have difficulty in distinguishing is the difference between pikes (or chuços) and lances (or spears). For a start, we don't have a translation for the term 'spear' in portuguese ... and neither have the Spaniards, i think. Would it sometimes the difference be the length of the haft, considering that the earliest pikes had imense lengths? Or does the difference (also) reside the blade shape ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Will try and post pics of the pike soon...

Forgive me for the impertinence, Mark; if by any chance the issue is any conflict with attaching pictures in the Forum, i am at your disposal to post them, once you email them to me:
fernandoviana@netcabo.pt

16th April 2009, 01:14 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	A question about boarding pikes I recently acquired what I hope to be a boarding pike. Yes, it was an ebay buy from several months ago and billed as an English pike. It has a nice wormy ash haft shaved smooth, which I understand was a common practice (the other being the black primer/coating). The head on it doesn't have langets as some did, but because I think this piece is either early American or Colonial Spanish, this lack of langet is typical. The head is diamond-shaped dark iron with a short neck marked with a spiral pattern and some "X's" to the base of the collar. Old museum number to haft. Here is my question and paranoid worry... This piece sort of reminds me of some African spears I have seen, especially with the X markings. There are certainly cononial decorations with this pattern as well, of course, but it did bother me to see the similarities. The problem is, once again as with many of these weapon patterns, pikes came in all manner of shapes, sizes. There are very primitive pieces and obviously nicer styles, sooooo... How might one determine if this truly is a boarding pike? Does anyone have any examples of pikes from the Spanish colonies? Do African spears use wormy ash for hafts?? (I wouldn't think so). Mine measures approx 68-70". Is this the common length for any spears, Spanish lances or other weapons that could be construed as a pike? Just curious- thanks! Mark

17th April 2009, 05:32 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Thanks for coming in on this, Celtan. I was wondering if these were more in the pike or lance catagory. I know both existed in New Spain. The point with the 4 sided head second down on Fernando's posted thread looks like the detached head of another piece that I have (not the discussed pike I started with) sans the straps. Were these points universally used on both pikes and lances by the Spanish, or were there any differences? Will try and post pics of the pike soon... Last edited by M ELEY; 17th April 2009 at 05:40 AM. Reason: addition

16th April 2009, 08:56 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Model 1820 is posted in a bizarre attachment; i hope you can open it. Otherwise, just tell. Fernando

17th April 2009, 04:16 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Thanks, Fernando, for posting these important pics. Material on boarding pikes, much like other naval weapons, is hard to find. My piece is much more primitive, not like those made for the Sapnish naval vessels, but more like what you might see on a privateer or merchant ship in the New World. It's blade is more leaf-shaped, placing it in the pre-1800 time frame. I will attempt to post a pic soon, as I do wish to get others input on it. Thanks again for posting those pics. I've heard of, but never seen the double-headed pikes (chuzo). You'd have to be pretty daring to have to face one of them while clambering over the rail of a ship!!