A Sumatra Keris with twisted core blade und Gonjo

[Tatyana Dianova]

The Keris has an ivory Ukiran and a twisted core blade and Gonjo. I believe it is quite old and from Sumatra. Is it an Aceh Keris? Any comments are welcome.

[Sajen]

Hello Tatjana,

only the hilt and pendokok is from Sumatra, blade and scabbard are from Java, the tilam upih blade is indeed very nice, scabbard is sadang walikat style. The hilt don't belong to this blade. I would put the very nice ivory hilt on a stand and would look for a proper hilt and mendak for the ensemble. Can you show a picture how the blade fit inside the scabbard?

Regards,
Detlef

[Jean]

The scabbard is in sandang walikat style from East Java, the ivory Jawa demam hilt from Sumatra, and the blade looks Javanese to me but I am not sure.
Regards
PS: I agree with Detlef, and the pamor pattern on the sor-soran appears to be Lar Gangsir?

[A. G. Maisey]

The blade is actually Madura Sepuh (old Madura), which of course makes it East Javanese, as is the wrongko.

Blade and wrongko are correct, just get an appropriate hilt for it, East Jawa planar would look good.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Thank you all for your help!
The scabbard is original to the blade.
I have an old Madura hilt which I can use for the Keris. Would it be OK? Alas, I do not have any East Java planar hilts available...

[A. G. Maisey]

Provided the size is in proportion it would certainly be much better than what is on it, but I would advise that you put a distinctly East Javanese hilt on your wants list.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The blade is actually Madura Sepuh (old Madura), which of course makes it East Javanese, as is the wrongko.

Blade and wrongko are correct, just get an appropriate hilt for it, East Jawa planar would look good.

Thank you Alan. For our education and reference, what makes this blade an old Madura piece?
Tatiana, more detailed pictures of the blade would be welcome to allow a better evaluation.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, the opinion I have expressed in respect of the classification of this blade is based upon a process of elimination:-

pawakan; in other words it looks like an old Madura blade; the pamor style and execution, the old style of tikel alis, the proportions. Pretty subjective?

Yep.

So what we do in this sort of situation is run through the patterns of keris that we carry in our mind and compare with those patterns:- can we classify this as something else?

Mataram? Maybe, but have we ever seen a Mataram keris with this sort of pamor?

I haven't, not only that but the proportion is a bit too gangly for M'ram. Too longish. The point tapers a bit too much.

Against Madura, the outside line of gandhik doesn't slope in quite enough, but for me, that's not a good enough negative to outweigh the material characteristics, and the pamor.

Actually, if I see that style of pamor + the material, I start looking for reasons for the piece in question NOT to be Madura.

Same thing with a nice distinct square blumbangan:- I start with the assumption that I'm looking at some sort of M'ram keris, and then I look for reasons why it cannot be.

Segaluh:- I see that long stretch on the gandhik side of the sorsoran and I look for reasons for it not to be Segaluh.

Yeah, sure, there are many identifiers when we begin to use this tangguh system of classification, but most classifications have one or two overwhelmingly strong identifiers that we immediately grab, and then we look for other identifiers that negate those strong ones.

In the case of this keris, we have a nicely curved gonjo, not really Old Madura at all, and the blumbangan does tend a wee bit towards M'ram, but although the outside line of the gandhik doesn't slope in as much as we might expect to see in a Madura keris, the line of the inside of the gandhik is nicely within parameters.

So we ask:- "OK, if its not Old Madura, what else might it be? What do we have to choose from?"

Well, we can forget all the really old stuff, this is not an immensely old keris, and has none of the characteristics of a really old keris.

So --- Tuban? Nope, not with pamor like that.

Pajang? Not even an outside possibility.

M'ram? If so, what sub-division? In my mind it simply doesn't line up with any.

Kajoran? Nope

Kartosuro? Never in a million years.

Surakarta? Let's not joke.

What else do we have available?

Maybe somewhere along the North Coast, or even into the heartland of East Jawa, if so, where? And wherever we care to nominate you can bet on it that even if it was done in Surabaya or Malang, or Jember, the bloke that did was Madurese, either born or descended.

Tangguh is all about opinion, and that opinion is based on what we can see --- and if possible , feel --- and experience. It becomes a balance of the things for and the things against and the opinion becomes the best of the possibilities. This is particularly so for a very ordinary keris like this one. Its different ballgame entirely for a keris of very high quality, in such a case we expect to be looking at very clearly defined indicators that do not really permit any argument.

My opinion is Madura Sepuh, and that is a classification that sometimes indicates a geographic point of origin, other times does not.

I'd put money on it that most people, or at least most experienced motor vehicle drivers, can identify the make, and often the model of a vehicle from a distance and with only a glance.

Why?

Because they see vehicles all the time, every day, over many years and they know what they look like. Will they mistake a 1960 Fiat for a 1995 Toyota? Pretty unlikely I think.

That's the way keris classification works:- you form a snap opinion and then try to disprove it.

[Jean]

Thank you Alan, brilliant analysis! I leaned towards East Java without finding a clear clue but I did not consider Old Madura because I thought that the pamor pattern is too complex for this origin, good to know that it is not!
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, the opinion I have expressed in respect of the classification of this blade is based upon a process of elimination:-

pawakan; in other words it looks like an old Madura blade; the pamor style and execution, the old style of tikel alis, the proportions. Pretty subjective?

Yep.

So what we do in this sort of situation is run through the patterns of keris that we carry in our mind and compare with those patterns:- can we classify this as something else?

Mataram? Maybe, but have we ever seen a Mataram keris with this sort of pamor?

I haven't, not only that but the proportion is a bit too gangly for M'ram. Too longish. The point tapers a bit too much.

Against Madura, the outside line of gandhik doesn't slope in quite enough, but for me, that's not a good enough negative to outweigh the material characteristics, and the pamor.

Actually, if I see that style of pamor + the material, I start looking for reasons for the piece in question NOT to be Madura.

Same thing with a nice distinct square blumbangan:- I start with the assumption that I'm looking at some sort of M'ram keris, and then I look for reasons why it cannot be.

Segaluh:- I see that long stretch on the gandhik side of the sorsoran and I look for reasons for it not to be Segaluh.

Yeah, sure, there are many identifiers when we begin to use this tangguh system of classification, but most classifications have one or two overwhelmingly strong identifiers that we immediately grab, and then we look for other identifiers that negate those strong ones.

In the case of this keris, we have a nicely curved gonjo, not really Old Madura at all, and the blumbangan does tend a wee bit towards M'ram, but although the outside line of the gandhik doesn't slope in as much as we might expect to see in a Madura keris, the line of the inside of the gandhik is nicely within parameters.

So we ask:- "OK, if its not Old Madura, what else might it be? What do we have to choose from?"

Well, we can forget all the really old stuff, this is not an immensely old keris, and has none of the characteristics of a really old keris.

So --- Tuban? Nope, not with pamor like that.

Pajang? Not even an outside possibility.

M'ram? If so, what sub-division? In my mind it simply doesn't line up with any.

Kajoran? Nope

Kartosuro? Never in a million years.

Surakarta? Let's not joke.

What else do we have available?

Maybe somewhere along the North Coast, or even into the heartland of East Jawa, if so, where? And wherever we care to nominate you can bet on it that even if it was done in Surabaya or Malang, or Jember, the bloke that did was Madurese, either born or descended.

Tangguh is all about opinion, and that opinion is based on what we can see --- and if possible , feel --- and experience. It becomes a balance of the things for and the things against and the opinion becomes the best of the possibilities. This is particularly so for a very ordinary keris like this one. Its different ballgame entirely for a keris of very high quality, in such a case we expect to be looking at very clearly defined indicators that do not really permit any argument.

My opinion is Madura Sepuh, and that is a classification that sometimes indicates a geographic point of origin, other times does not.

I'd put money on it that most people, or at least most experienced motor vehicle drivers, can identify the make, and often the model of a vehicle from a distance and with only a glance.

Why?

Because they see vehicles all the time, every day, over many years and they know what they look like. Will they mistake a 1960 Fiat for a 1995 Toyota? Pretty unlikely I think.

That's the way keris classification works:- you form a snap opinion and then try to disprove it.

Thank you Alan,

great learning lesson!

Regards,
Detlef