Real Muramasa?

ariel · 26th July 2009, 10:01 PM

This one just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...torefresh=true
The seller intimates that the blade was made by Muramasa ( the ONE!!!).
I am not into Nihonto, but am rather intrigued: not every day one can see something like that.
Any opinions?

BerberDagger · 27th July 2009, 02:53 PM

Hi,
the blade are very very particular but I think that they are gimei ; a real muramasa blade is very rare and the owner probably send blade to Japan for shinsha before to sell them!

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2009, 04:15 PM

Although I have never been a student of the nihonto (=Japanese sword), it is hard for most who have ever studied edged weapons in virtually any field to not have heard the legends of Muramasa.

Since we have wide readership, many of whom, as myself, are not that familiar with Muramasa, I thought I might add some overview to explain why an item with blade stated of this maker is so significant.

Sengo Muramasa, a fabled swordsmith who lived during the Muromachi Period (16th century) was apparantly a student of the Ise school of swordsmiths. The blades of Ise weapons were known for extreme sharpness.

The legend, as it became known, was of course that the blades of Muramasa fell out of favor with the Tokugawa shogunate when Tokugawa Leyasu became shogun in 1603. It was said that since he had lost many friends and relatives to these deadly blades, and when he badly cut himself with one, in anger he forbad his Samurai to possess them.
This led to the tales of the demonic cursed blades that had a thirst for blood, fueled by Japanese literature and drama of the period, and seemingly very much a precursor to the gunfighter styled myths of Americas wild west. Interestingly, several western movies are taken from Japanese stories of Samurai warriors, such as "The Seven Samurai".

Muramasa blades it would seem after this mandate, were often confiscated or destroyed, and certainly became difficult to obtain. Clearly those who opposed the Tokugawa very much desired these blades as they had been given such notoriety as deadly to that family. Certainly this led to forgeries.

Many of the original blades were said to have had markings signed on the tang obliterated, presumably on the examples owned by Samurai who did not want thier blades revealed to be Muramasa.

While this dirk is stated to have a blade with apparantly somewhat damaged or obscured signature believed to be Muramasa, it is difficult to believe a weapon with blade thought to be of this importance would not have been appraised (=shinsa). Weapons with such fabulous pedigree it would seem would be worthy of this essential documentation.
There are few fields of weapons collecting as formidable in expense or in extremely complex and detailed knowledge as nihonto, but by the same token, few have the type of appraisal networks and resources these weapons have.
Usually it is not necessary to have the weapon sent to Japan, since it seems these professional appraisal groups from Japan often come to the U.S. to seek weapons for appraisal. While I am sure there may be instances of some fraudulent activity attracted to such lucrative items, naturally the authentic organizations are as would be expected, most honorable.

An intriguing item, and my best wishes to the buyer. Hopefully they will pursue further the history of this interesting dirk.

Best regards,
Jim

trenchwarfare · 27th July 2009, 05:09 PM

I have heard that, for every 10 swords, with famous signatures, 8 are fakes. The other 2 are questionable.

Rich · 27th July 2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

I have heard that, for every 10 swords, with famous signatures, 8 are fakes. The other 2 are questionable.

I've heard that for every 10 swords by famous smiths, 11 are fakes !

Rich S

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2009, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

I've heard that for every 10 swords by famous smiths, 11 are fakes !

Rich S

Oh Rich! Ive told ya a million times not to exaggerate!!!

Seriously, glad to see you in on this, few people I know can touch your knowledge on nihonto (now that I looked the word up and hope Im using it correctly

All best regards,
Jim

26th July 2009, 10:01 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Real Muramasa? This one just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...torefresh=true The seller intimates that the blade was made by Muramasa ( the ONE!!!). I am not into Nihonto, but am rather intrigued: not every day one can see something like that. Any opinions?

27th July 2009, 02:53 PM	#2
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	Hi, the blade are very very particular but I think that they are gimei ; a real muramasa blade is very rare and the owner probably send blade to Japan for shinsha before to sell them!

27th July 2009, 04:15 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Although I have never been a student of the nihonto (=Japanese sword), it is hard for most who have ever studied edged weapons in virtually any field to not have heard the legends of Muramasa. Since we have wide readership, many of whom, as myself, are not that familiar with Muramasa, I thought I might add some overview to explain why an item with blade stated of this maker is so significant. Sengo Muramasa, a fabled swordsmith who lived during the Muromachi Period (16th century) was apparantly a student of the Ise school of swordsmiths. The blades of Ise weapons were known for extreme sharpness. The legend, as it became known, was of course that the blades of Muramasa fell out of favor with the Tokugawa shogunate when Tokugawa Leyasu became shogun in 1603. It was said that since he had lost many friends and relatives to these deadly blades, and when he badly cut himself with one, in anger he forbad his Samurai to possess them. This led to the tales of the demonic cursed blades that had a thirst for blood, fueled by Japanese literature and drama of the period, and seemingly very much a precursor to the gunfighter styled myths of Americas wild west. Interestingly, several western movies are taken from Japanese stories of Samurai warriors, such as "The Seven Samurai". Muramasa blades it would seem after this mandate, were often confiscated or destroyed, and certainly became difficult to obtain. Clearly those who opposed the Tokugawa very much desired these blades as they had been given such notoriety as deadly to that family. Certainly this led to forgeries. Many of the original blades were said to have had markings signed on the tang obliterated, presumably on the examples owned by Samurai who did not want thier blades revealed to be Muramasa. While this dirk is stated to have a blade with apparantly somewhat damaged or obscured signature believed to be Muramasa, it is difficult to believe a weapon with blade thought to be of this importance would not have been appraised (=shinsa). Weapons with such fabulous pedigree it would seem would be worthy of this essential documentation. There are few fields of weapons collecting as formidable in expense or in extremely complex and detailed knowledge as nihonto, but by the same token, few have the type of appraisal networks and resources these weapons have. Usually it is not necessary to have the weapon sent to Japan, since it seems these professional appraisal groups from Japan often come to the U.S. to seek weapons for appraisal. While I am sure there may be instances of some fraudulent activity attracted to such lucrative items, naturally the authentic organizations are as would be expected, most honorable. An intriguing item, and my best wishes to the buyer. Hopefully they will pursue further the history of this interesting dirk. Best regards, Jim

27th July 2009, 05:09 PM	#4
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I have heard that, for every 10 swords, with famous signatures, 8 are fakes. The other 2 are questionable.