hilt material ?

danny1976 · 18th December 2009, 09:20 PM

Hello,

I did recieved this hilt today .

On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol.
I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not
sure what kind.

The structure is verry closed.

Thanks in advance,

Danny

asomotif · 18th December 2009, 10:26 PM

Maybe sperm whale ? (potvis in dutch)

guwaya · 19th December 2009, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny1976

Hello,

I did recieved this hilt today .

On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol.
I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not
sure what kind.

The structure is verry closed.

Thanks in advance,

Danny

Hello,

could you send a picture from the hole and its surrounding?

guwaya

danny1976 · 19th December 2009, 11:36 AM

Hi Guwaya ,

Here a extra photo,

Danny

Michel · 19th December 2009, 12:06 PM

Hi Danny,

Are you sure it is Ivory ?
Have you made the traditional hot needle test?
The lack of sharpness in the details make me think it could be molded.
I may be totally wrong and in that case I apologize for such an iconoclastic view of your hilt.
Regards
Michel

danny1976 · 19th December 2009, 12:15 PM

Hi Michel,

No need to apologize,

Indeed i did make the test and al that happens is a red hot needle that wil bend when i push i against the hilt.

So no plastic or someting like it.

guwaya · 19th December 2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny1976

Hi Guwaya ,

Here a extra photo,

Danny

Hi Danny,

Thank you for the extra photo.

At the first view I thought as asomotif that it could be spermwhale ivory but now I think it is not as I am missing the bull's eye. I have no idea at the moment - sorry.

Guwaya

Rick · 19th December 2009, 04:40 PM

Danny, I think it looks like Marine Ivory .
Note the interesting 'swirls' near the base in your first and second pictures

I would not stake my life on it though !!

Marcokeris · 19th December 2009, 06:49 PM

Also i think it's marine ivory

kulbuntet · 19th December 2009, 08:10 PM

Hi Danny,

Sure its marine ivory, most of madura ukiran are and it shows clouds so its marine. This one is from before 1825. Got it from Peter?

Regards Michel, amsterdam

VANDOO · 29th December 2009, 05:28 PM

I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL HILTS SIMULAR TO THIS ONE. THEY HAVE ALL BEEN SMALLER THIN HILTS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN A LARGE ROBUST ONE IN THIS EXACT FORM. I HAVE SEEN LARGER MORE ROBUST ONES CARVED FROM THE ENTIRE LARGE TOOTH BUT SIZE IS LIMITED USING WHALE TEETH AS THEY ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN ELEPHANT, HIPPO OR WALRUS IVORY. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MADE FROM ONE HALF OF A LARGE SPERM WHALE TOOTH. AS MENTIONED IVORY WAS NOT EASILY COME BY IN THESE AREAS SO MAKEING TWO HULU FROM ONE TOOTH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DESIRABLE FROM AN ECONOMIC REASON. OF MARINE IVORY THE TWO LARGEST ARE WALRUS AND SPERM WHALE ALL THE OTHER MARINE MAMMALS TEETH WOULD NOT BE LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE SUCH A HILT EVEN FROM THE ENTIRE TOOTH (I DON'T CONSIDER HIPPO AS MARINE IVORY).
THE SPERM WHALE TOOTH IS HOLLOW AT THE BASE AND MOSTLY SOLID TOWARDS THE TIP, MANY HAVE A LARGE BLUNT TIP OFTEN LARGER THAN THE ROOT. THE TOOTH GROWS IN CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE A TREE DOES AND WOULD NOT HAVE THE CROSS HATCHING FOUND IN ELEPHANT TEETH OR THE CENTER HONEY COMB LOOK OF WALRUS IVORY. BONE DOES NOT HAVE CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE YOUR HULU.
IVORY WILL CHANGE COLOR IF BURIED ON LAND OR SEA, THERE ARE PLACES WHERE WHALE TEETH ARE FOUND ON THE SEA BOTTOM OR BURRIED ON BEACHES THAT HAVE CHANGED TO A COLOR SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THOSE TAKEN FROM LIVING ANIMALS DURING WHALEING ARE PURE WHITE BUT WOULD GRADUALLY CHANGE COLOR OVER THE YEARS AS A KERIS HANDLE WOULD ESPECIALLY IF USED AND HANDLED A LOT.
ON THE SIDE OF YOUR HILT YOU SEE THE BULLSEYE WHICH LOOKS LIKE THE GROWTH RINGS FOUND IN SPERM WHALE TEETH AND FROM THE ORIENTATION THAT IS WHAT LEADS ME TO THINK IT WAS MADE FROM HALF A TOOTH. THE WEAR ON THE CARVEING AND THE COLOR LEADS ME TO AGREE THE HILT IS VERY LIKELY AN OLD ONE THAT WAS CARRIED AND HANDLED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. OFTEN WHALE TEETH WERE REFERRED TO AS FISH TEETH IN OLDER MORE SIMPLE TIMES. I HAVE SUCH A HILT BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO WAY TO TAKE PICTURES TO POST AT THIS TIME. I HOPE THIS HELPS AND THAT MY OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT. CONGRADULATIONS ON A NICE KERIS.

SEARCH THE ARCHIVES FOR POSTS ON IVORY WITH REFRENCES AND FURTHER INFO.

danny1976 · 29th December 2009, 06:09 PM

Hi Vandoo,

Thanks for youre deep going explanation on the hilt.
Personaly i also have the idea its a verry old one , because of the signs of wearing and handling this one.

It,s not realy big , about 8.5 cm but it has a nice weight .

what kind it is , i will just say if some one ask its sea ivory , but for know its standind quite nice on a madura keris at my home

Regards,

Danny

Marcokeris · 29th December 2009, 08:51 PM

About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???

asomotif · 29th December 2009, 10:17 PM

I wonder if there are genuine rhino keris hilts.

But here is a nice thread on rhino :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=ivory+rhino

David · 30th December 2009, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???

Well, i'd have to say that it might be appropriate for this forum if indeed someone could show us a keris hilt made of rhino, but i have never seen that. Still, even if someone has one to show it might be best to start a new thread on it.

Alam Shah · 3rd January 2010, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i'd have to say that it might be appropriate for this forum if indeed someone could show us a keris hilt made of rhino, but i have never seen that. Still, even if someone has one to show it might be best to start a new thread on it.

Hi Marco and David,

This is an example on a Sumatran keris..
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html

* see other pictures here.

18th December 2009, 09:20 PM	#1
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	hilt material ? Hello, I did recieved this hilt today . On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol. I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not sure what kind. The structure is verry closed. Thanks in advance, Danny Attached Images

19th December 2009, 11:36 AM	#4
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi Guwaya , Here a extra photo, Danny Attached Images

19th December 2009, 12:06 PM	#5
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Ivory ? Hi Danny, Are you sure it is Ivory ? Have you made the traditional hot needle test? The lack of sharpness in the details make me think it could be molded. I may be totally wrong and in that case I apologize for such an iconoclastic view of your hilt. Regards Michel

29th December 2009, 10:17 PM	#14
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	Rhino I wonder if there are genuine rhino keris hilts. But here is a nice thread on rhino : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=ivory+rhino

18th December 2009, 10:26 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	Maybe sperm whale ? (potvis in dutch)

19th December 2009, 12:15 PM	#6
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi Michel, No need to apologize, Indeed i did make the test and al that happens is a red hot needle that wil bend when i push i against the hilt. So no plastic or someting like it.

19th December 2009, 04:40 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Danny, I think it looks like Marine Ivory . Note the interesting 'swirls' near the base in your first and second pictures I would not stake my life on it though !!

19th December 2009, 06:49 PM	#9
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Also i think it's marine ivory

19th December 2009, 08:10 PM	#10
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Hi Danny, Sure its marine ivory, most of madura ukiran are and it shows clouds so its marine. This one is from before 1825. Got it from Peter? Regards Michel, amsterdam

29th December 2009, 05:28 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL HILTS SIMULAR TO THIS ONE. THEY HAVE ALL BEEN SMALLER THIN HILTS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN A LARGE ROBUST ONE IN THIS EXACT FORM. I HAVE SEEN LARGER MORE ROBUST ONES CARVED FROM THE ENTIRE LARGE TOOTH BUT SIZE IS LIMITED USING WHALE TEETH AS THEY ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN ELEPHANT, HIPPO OR WALRUS IVORY. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MADE FROM ONE HALF OF A LARGE SPERM WHALE TOOTH. AS MENTIONED IVORY WAS NOT EASILY COME BY IN THESE AREAS SO MAKEING TWO HULU FROM ONE TOOTH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DESIRABLE FROM AN ECONOMIC REASON. OF MARINE IVORY THE TWO LARGEST ARE WALRUS AND SPERM WHALE ALL THE OTHER MARINE MAMMALS TEETH WOULD NOT BE LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE SUCH A HILT EVEN FROM THE ENTIRE TOOTH (I DON'T CONSIDER HIPPO AS MARINE IVORY). THE SPERM WHALE TOOTH IS HOLLOW AT THE BASE AND MOSTLY SOLID TOWARDS THE TIP, MANY HAVE A LARGE BLUNT TIP OFTEN LARGER THAN THE ROOT. THE TOOTH GROWS IN CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE A TREE DOES AND WOULD NOT HAVE THE CROSS HATCHING FOUND IN ELEPHANT TEETH OR THE CENTER HONEY COMB LOOK OF WALRUS IVORY. BONE DOES NOT HAVE CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE YOUR HULU. IVORY WILL CHANGE COLOR IF BURIED ON LAND OR SEA, THERE ARE PLACES WHERE WHALE TEETH ARE FOUND ON THE SEA BOTTOM OR BURRIED ON BEACHES THAT HAVE CHANGED TO A COLOR SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THOSE TAKEN FROM LIVING ANIMALS DURING WHALEING ARE PURE WHITE BUT WOULD GRADUALLY CHANGE COLOR OVER THE YEARS AS A KERIS HANDLE WOULD ESPECIALLY IF USED AND HANDLED A LOT. ON THE SIDE OF YOUR HILT YOU SEE THE BULLSEYE WHICH LOOKS LIKE THE GROWTH RINGS FOUND IN SPERM WHALE TEETH AND FROM THE ORIENTATION THAT IS WHAT LEADS ME TO THINK IT WAS MADE FROM HALF A TOOTH. THE WEAR ON THE CARVEING AND THE COLOR LEADS ME TO AGREE THE HILT IS VERY LIKELY AN OLD ONE THAT WAS CARRIED AND HANDLED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. OFTEN WHALE TEETH WERE REFERRED TO AS FISH TEETH IN OLDER MORE SIMPLE TIMES. I HAVE SUCH A HILT BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO WAY TO TAKE PICTURES TO POST AT THIS TIME. I HOPE THIS HELPS AND THAT MY OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT. CONGRADULATIONS ON A NICE KERIS. SEARCH THE ARCHIVES FOR POSTS ON IVORY WITH REFRENCES AND FURTHER INFO.

29th December 2009, 06:09 PM	#12
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi Vandoo, Thanks for youre deep going explanation on the hilt. Personaly i also have the idea its a verry old one , because of the signs of wearing and handling this one. It,s not realy big , about 8.5 cm but it has a nice weight . what kind it is , i will just say if some one ask its sea ivory , but for know its standind quite nice on a madura keris at my home Regards, Danny

29th December 2009, 08:51 PM	#13
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???