Show off your Chinese fighting knives :)

KuKulzA28 · 7th March 2012, 11:09 AM

Now here's a topic that doesn't seem to surface very often! Knives seem to play less of a role in traditional Chinese martial arts. The stage is given to spears, staves, sabers, and swords. But, my impression is that thick fighting knives were pretty common, at least in the south, and on Taiwan. I have seen pictures of "River Pirate knives" and Pai dao or "shield knives" and Hu-dieh-dao or "butterfly knives" or the more specific baat jam do or "eight slash knives". There's no real set form, except that the blade is always pretty similar - something like a long sharpened wedge. They range from large (but concealable) knives to shortswords. They are single or paired. They have guards or don't. Sometimes they have diamond checkering on grips, sometimes some floral design, sometimes a spiraling carve, and sometimes just plain wood. And they typically have thick spines, hefty handles, and a stabbing point.

Well, I got one awhile back. No sheath. It's hefty for a knife, but because of the heavy pommel, the balance is right at the guard, making it very manageable and nimble. Spine very thick, blade is sharp, and the tip made for stabbing. Seems like you could jam this through thick clothing, rattan armor, leather - whatever was worn back then in the south for protection. The simple design also lends itself to versatility. It can be held different ways, all of which feel good for stabbing.

Some thoughts...

Do these normally come in wooden sheaths? Leather? Pig-skin?
Who used these? I'm assuming not the regular standing armies - probably civilians looking for a self-defense weapon, bandits, pirates, local martial artists and bodyguards... ?
Did this type of knife make it out of Guangdong and Fujian to the Philippines, Malaysia, and Indonesia with the merchants and pirates? How did it fare against native designs?
Is there a specific name or term for this style? I have a feeling there isn't.

(on a side note, you can see a similarity between this style of knife and some of the Taiwanese aboriginal knife styles)

I figure it could be good to consolidate them into a thread for the purposes of sharing, showing off, and discussion..

So you have one of these Chinese fighting knives? Let's see 'em!

Neil · 7th March 2012, 07:52 PM

Great idea for a thread. I think more discussions on Chinese arms are in order.

Here is one that I sold about a year ago. I had several pictures of it in the past, but can only find this one now.

It was part of a pair at one time. Note the thin copper guard and stacked leather grip. Not as nicely made as your example. Although the impressive variety is one of the things that makes Chinese arms so interesting.

Nathaniel · 8th March 2012, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

Great idea for a thread. I think more discussions on Chinese arms are in order.

I definitely agree! Great Thread! Often these knives do not get as much attention as the other Chinese weapons, however a knife is usually reasonably available and easier to conceal.

KuKulzA28 · 8th March 2012, 06:33 PM

Glad you guys agree that this is a good topic, hope we get more participants!

Maskell · 13th March 2012, 05:07 PM

Gentleman,

These 3 knives came from China within the past 6 years in a container of Chinese antiques. Don't know much about them except they look pretty old. The largest is 18 1/4" overall. Any comments welcome.

Best Regards,
Jerry

DaveA · 13th March 2012, 11:50 PM

Here is my contribution. A double knife "River Pirate" knife. The absence of a hand guard distinguishes the "river pirate" type from other hudiedao. The knives can be quickly reversed in the hand and used with the unsharpened back edge to subdue an opponent without lethal cuts. Both of these knives have very thick and stiff pattern-welded blades of a very distinctive form and quite a substantial strength, retaining sharp edges and showing considerable aged patina. These blades have thick wedge shaped blades with a broad waist and diamond shape near the hilt. The grips are old wood or possibly horn, and all brass mounts show heavy patina and wonderful multi-sided graining to the guards and pommels. The faceted heavy brass pommel provides the knives with excellent balance in the hand. The leather scabbard is whole but in relatively poor condition compared to the knives. The overall length of each knife is 14 ¼ inches and each blade is 10 ¼ inches. Both knives house in the scabbard measuring 14 ¾ inches.

Lew · 15th March 2012, 07:05 PM

Here is a narrow bladed knife/dagger from Yunnan with a 7 inch blade.

Timo Nieminen · 17th March 2012, 10:59 AM

The weather was not good for photography today, nor was my camera, but here is a pair of knives. About 4mm thick at the spine at the widest part of the blade. Wedge-section, tapered.

Also, a much bigger knife.

I have no details about their origins, other than they're Chinese.

Lew · 18th March 2012, 09:14 AM

Here are three nice examples that are no longer in my collection

. The two top ones are Chinese the smaller one is Vietnamese.

Neil · 19th March 2012, 09:26 PM

I think the stacked look on the guard of the most recent photos is interesting and something I have not seen on others. Although there are two sitting right next to each other. Unlike the octagonal pommel which is a commonly seen feature on Chinese weapons in general, is that guard presentation often seen by others.

Lew, do you have any back story or provenance on these two in particular.

I have also read somewhere that these forms of daggers were also made in San Fransisco in the mid to late 19th century. Are others familiar with this information. If so, can you elaborate on it.

7th March 2012, 11:09 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Show off your Chinese fighting knives :) Now here's a topic that doesn't seem to surface very often! Knives seem to play less of a role in traditional Chinese martial arts. The stage is given to spears, staves, sabers, and swords. But, my impression is that thick fighting knives were pretty common, at least in the south, and on Taiwan. I have seen pictures of "River Pirate knives" and Pai dao or "shield knives" and Hu-dieh-dao or "butterfly knives" or the more specific baat jam do or "eight slash knives". There's no real set form, except that the blade is always pretty similar - something like a long sharpened wedge. They range from large (but concealable) knives to shortswords. They are single or paired. They have guards or don't. Sometimes they have diamond checkering on grips, sometimes some floral design, sometimes a spiraling carve, and sometimes just plain wood. And they typically have thick spines, hefty handles, and a stabbing point. Well, I got one awhile back. No sheath. It's hefty for a knife, but because of the heavy pommel, the balance is right at the guard, making it very manageable and nimble. Spine very thick, blade is sharp, and the tip made for stabbing. Seems like you could jam this through thick clothing, rattan armor, leather - whatever was worn back then in the south for protection. The simple design also lends itself to versatility. It can be held different ways, all of which feel good for stabbing. Some thoughts... Do these normally come in wooden sheaths? Leather? Pig-skin? Who used these? I'm assuming not the regular standing armies - probably civilians looking for a self-defense weapon, bandits, pirates, local martial artists and bodyguards... ? Did this type of knife make it out of Guangdong and Fujian to the Philippines, Malaysia, and Indonesia with the merchants and pirates? How did it fare against native designs? Is there a specific name or term for this style? I have a feeling there isn't. (on a side note, you can see a similarity between this style of knife and some of the Taiwanese aboriginal knife styles) I figure it could be good to consolidate them into a thread for the purposes of sharing, showing off, and discussion.. So you have one of these Chinese fighting knives? Let's see 'em! Attached Images

7th March 2012, 07:52 PM	#2
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Great idea for a thread. I think more discussions on Chinese arms are in order. Here is one that I sold about a year ago. I had several pictures of it in the past, but can only find this one now. It was part of a pair at one time. Note the thin copper guard and stacked leather grip. Not as nicely made as your example. Although the impressive variety is one of the things that makes Chinese arms so interesting. Attached Images

13th March 2012, 05:07 PM	#5
Maskell Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 38	Chinese knives Gentleman, These 3 knives came from China within the past 6 years in a container of Chinese antiques. Don't know much about them except they look pretty old. The largest is 18 1/4" overall. Any comments welcome. Best Regards, Jerry Attached Images

13th March 2012, 11:50 PM	#6
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Chinese "River Pirate" knives Here is my contribution. A double knife "River Pirate" knife. The absence of a hand guard distinguishes the "river pirate" type from other hudiedao. The knives can be quickly reversed in the hand and used with the unsharpened back edge to subdue an opponent without lethal cuts. Both of these knives have very thick and stiff pattern-welded blades of a very distinctive form and quite a substantial strength, retaining sharp edges and showing considerable aged patina. These blades have thick wedge shaped blades with a broad waist and diamond shape near the hilt. The grips are old wood or possibly horn, and all brass mounts show heavy patina and wonderful multi-sided graining to the guards and pommels. The faceted heavy brass pommel provides the knives with excellent balance in the hand. The leather scabbard is whole but in relatively poor condition compared to the knives. The overall length of each knife is 14 ¼ inches and each blade is 10 ¼ inches. Both knives house in the scabbard measuring 14 ¾ inches. Attached Images

15th March 2012, 07:05 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is a narrow bladed knife/dagger from Yunnan with a 7 inch blade. Attached Images

8th March 2012, 06:33 PM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Glad you guys agree that this is a good topic, hope we get more participants!

17th March 2012, 10:59 AM	#8
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	The weather was not good for photography today, nor was my camera, but here is a pair of knives. About 4mm thick at the spine at the widest part of the blade. Wedge-section, tapered. Also, a much bigger knife. I have no details about their origins, other than they're Chinese. Attached Images

18th March 2012, 09:14 AM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are three nice examples that are no longer in my collection . The two top ones are Chinese the smaller one is Vietnamese. Attached Images

19th March 2012, 09:26 PM	#10
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	I think the stacked look on the guard of the most recent photos is interesting and something I have not seen on others. Although there are two sitting right next to each other. Unlike the octagonal pommel which is a commonly seen feature on Chinese weapons in general, is that guard presentation often seen by others. Lew, do you have any back story or provenance on these two in particular. I have also read somewhere that these forms of daggers were also made in San Fransisco in the mid to late 19th century. Are others familiar with this information. If so, can you elaborate on it.