Wootz Marsh Arab dagger translation help?

spiral · 16th April 2010, 03:08 PM

Hi chaps, picked this up this morning, while touring round in a seaside antique/junk shop, a Wootz Marsh Arab dagger can anyone help with translation of the scabbard writing please?

I think Blade appears to be reformed from an older blade that shows minimal remains of what was perhaps a gold cartouche just by the grip. Was this re use of old sword blades common in these knives, I wonder?

Any ideas to the meaning of the lion on the back of scabbard?

Blade needs polishing/etching but the wootz pattern is quite clear.

All thoughts opinions & of course translations welcome.

Spiral

ALEX · 16th April 2010, 05:19 PM

Spiral, not many junk shops would have a dagger like this, so you had a great find.
This one is certainly of above average quality for these jambiyas. The sham wootz blades on them are common, especially on ones with good quality silver scabbards like yours.
The blade looks proper i.e. original to the dagger, it is not of cut-down sword blade. I could not see any cartouche apart from some gold? residue at the base, which does not look as a cartouche.
The lion is imitation of famous "Lion of God" cartouche commonly encountered on Islamic blades. Along with writing it is much later, very crudely done and not matching the rest of scabbard... does not belong there, and a good example of bad attempt to add "value".

spiral · 16th April 2010, 09:00 PM

Thanks Alex, yes the silver as scrap isorth more than I paid alone I must admit.

I agree the quality of inscription & lion is much lower than the floral engraving, so I agree is most likley later, thanks for confirming my thoughts.

Id still like to know what it says though.

The gold is just specks but stands above the blade so assume it had a reason to be so. the whole area clearly shows reforging though. Even I can see that.

Interesting you see it as sham wootz? most sham Ive had is more simple & linear in style? Artzi web site shows few clearly sham examples I think?

Fascinated that you think a swordsmith cant reforge this blade out of another broken larger blade, I dont realy comprhend that as to my mind if a sword smith can forge a blade out of wootz {or any other steel.} why can they not reforge a blade from one type or size to another?

Thanks for your thoughts though Alex, was that your rhino horn gurade on ebay recently, as the buy it know price dropedf I nearly bought it, but then it was gone..

Such is ebay though..

Spiral

Atlantia · 16th April 2010, 09:47 PM

Thats an absolute beauty Spiral!
Just goes to show, never pass a junk shop by!
Well done indeed.

ALEX · 21st April 2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

... ...
Interesting you see it as sham wootz? most sham Ive had is more simple & linear in style? Artzi web site shows few clearly sham examples I think?

Fascinated that you think a swordsmith cant reforge this blade out of another broken larger blade, I dont realy comprhend that as to my mind if a sword smith can forge a blade out of wootz {or any other steel.} why can they not reforge a blade from one type or size to another?

Thanks for your thoughts though Alex, was that your rhino horn gurade on ebay recently, as the buy it know price dropedf I nearly bought it, but then it was gone..

Such is ebay though..

Spiral

Hi Spiral,

Sham wootz is characterized by low contrast/less complex pattern, and I think your blade is sham.

The reason I think the blade is original is because of it's geometry/curvature. The smith could re-forge it from another broken blade.. but why? it'd be so much easier to create it by stock removal, i.e. grinding...
I assume by "reforging" you meant metallurgical process, not mechanical reshape. I doubt the smiths used metallurgical reforge of broken blades much for the above reason.

No, that was not my gurage on eBay. That was another Alex's:-)

spiral · 21st April 2010, 08:19 PM

Thanks Alex for yours thoughts, The blade is heavily scrached which I think hides much of the pattern in the photos which seems quite swirly to me in hand reflected in sunlight? But Time will tell.

Havent found my 16X loupe yet, not where I thought it was.

But in the meantime herse a little cleanup around what I presumed is the top of a cartouche.

The crazed area in front of that looks like reforging to me or is perhaps just overheating ? But together whith the remains of a cartouche I still think reforging is likley.

As for a smiths reasons why its conjecture, but forging is always better than stock removal for quality of structure, & often speeds up the process as well I would say from seeing how fast a kukri is forged out of a rough billet in Nepal.

Pity the gurade wasnt yours, I think its its the nicest one Ive ever seen!

Spiral

ALEX · 21st April 2010, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

... forging is always better than stock removal for quality of structure, & often speeds up the process ...Spiral

Not with wootz. Forging wootz is very complex process, Re-forging it even more so. It's not only structure, but the pattern which is in stake, and when it comes to pattern preservation - stock removal is absolutely the best and easiest method.

Dom · 16th April 2010, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

All thoughts opinions & of course translations welcome.

Hi spiral

no more comments than already done, because ALEX said everything

I may just add the translation

MOHAMED AMAL either; DONE BY MOHAMED
GAWAD either; GAWAD (it's an arabic name)

à +

Dom

spiral · 17th April 2010, 03:05 PM

Thank you Dom, your help is excelent!

So a past muslim owner just put his own name on it perhaps?

I think its quite a long time since it had a muslim owner.

Spiral

Dom · 17th April 2010, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

So a past muslim owner just put his own name on it perhaps?

Hi Spiral
not owner ... "amal" means; the one who has done

- the scabbard ?? might be
- the blade ?? I doubt, the blacksmith sign on the blade
- the complete dagger ?? a possibility
BUT
I am sharing Alex analyse when he mention ;
writing it is much later, very crudely done and not matching the rest of scabbard..

for general information; owner in Arabic, is "sahreb" and we don't have that word

à +

Dom

spiral · 18th April 2010, 07:31 AM

Thank you Dom, in that case I have to concur with both you & Alex., as the inscription is much cruder than the floral work & in different method.

Your help is of great value.

Thanks again to all.

Spiral

ashoka · 18th April 2010, 05:30 PM

Just to play devils advocate I would suggest that the inscription was made before the wirework decoration was applied... ? The solder used to fix the wirework runs over/into the inscription in places, ie the tip of the lions tail... something not possible if the inscription was done after the wirework decoration...

16th April 2010, 03:08 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Wootz Marsh Arab dagger translation help? Hi chaps, picked this up this morning, while touring round in a seaside antique/junk shop, a Wootz Marsh Arab dagger can anyone help with translation of the scabbard writing please? I think Blade appears to be reformed from an older blade that shows minimal remains of what was perhaps a gold cartouche just by the grip. Was this re use of old sword blades common in these knives, I wonder? Any ideas to the meaning of the lion on the back of scabbard? Blade needs polishing/etching but the wootz pattern is quite clear. All thoughts opinions & of course translations welcome. Spiral

16th April 2010, 05:19 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Spiral, not many junk shops would have a dagger like this, so you had a great find. This one is certainly of above average quality for these jambiyas. The sham wootz blades on them are common, especially on ones with good quality silver scabbards like yours. The blade looks proper i.e. original to the dagger, it is not of cut-down sword blade. I could not see any cartouche apart from some gold? residue at the base, which does not look as a cartouche. The lion is imitation of famous "Lion of God" cartouche commonly encountered on Islamic blades. Along with writing it is much later, very crudely done and not matching the rest of scabbard... does not belong there, and a good example of bad attempt to add "value". Last edited by ALEX; 16th April 2010 at 05:30 PM.

16th April 2010, 09:00 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Alex, yes the silver as scrap isorth more than I paid alone I must admit. I agree the quality of inscription & lion is much lower than the floral engraving, so I agree is most likley later, thanks for confirming my thoughts. Id still like to know what it says though. The gold is just specks but stands above the blade so assume it had a reason to be so. the whole area clearly shows reforging though. Even I can see that. Interesting you see it as sham wootz? most sham Ive had is more simple & linear in style? Artzi web site shows few clearly sham examples I think? Fascinated that you think a swordsmith cant reforge this blade out of another broken larger blade, I dont realy comprhend that as to my mind if a sword smith can forge a blade out of wootz {or any other steel.} why can they not reforge a blade from one type or size to another? Thanks for your thoughts though Alex, was that your rhino horn gurade on ebay recently, as the buy it know price dropedf I nearly bought it, but then it was gone.. Such is ebay though.. Spiral Last edited by spiral; 16th April 2010 at 09:47 PM.

16th April 2010, 09:47 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thats an absolute beauty Spiral! Just goes to show, never pass a junk shop by! Well done indeed.

21st April 2010, 08:19 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Alex for yours thoughts, The blade is heavily scrached which I think hides much of the pattern in the photos which seems quite swirly to me in hand reflected in sunlight? But Time will tell. Havent found my 16X loupe yet, not where I thought it was. But in the meantime herse a little cleanup around what I presumed is the top of a cartouche. The crazed area in front of that looks like reforging to me or is perhaps just overheating ? But together whith the remains of a cartouche I still think reforging is likley. As for a smiths reasons why its conjecture, but forging is always better than stock removal for quality of structure, & often speeds up the process as well I would say from seeing how fast a kukri is forged out of a rough billet in Nepal. Pity the gurade wasnt yours, I think its its the nicest one Ive ever seen! Spiral

17th April 2010, 03:05 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thank you Dom, your help is excelent! So a past muslim owner just put his own name on it perhaps? I think its quite a long time since it had a muslim owner. Spiral

18th April 2010, 07:31 AM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thank you Dom, in that case I have to concur with both you & Alex., as the inscription is much cruder than the floral work & in different method. Your help is of great value. Thanks again to all. Spiral

18th April 2010, 05:30 PM	#12
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	Just to play devils advocate I would suggest that the inscription was made before the wirework decoration was applied... ? The solder used to fix the wirework runs over/into the inscription in places, ie the tip of the lions tail... something not possible if the inscription was done after the wirework decoration...