The Higher Standard

PClemente · 1st January 2013, 11:46 PM

Hi All,

There is a predicament that I have been aware of the past couple of years and I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention as well as open up a possible discussion. Lately I have been aware of a number of arms and armor dealers exaggerating their claims (and outright lying) about merchandise in order to appeal to more collectors. I will leave out specific names, etc. The misinformationn can simply be in the dating of an object or making false claims regarding its supposed untouched condition. For example, months ago I was interested in a supposed military fusil from the period of the F&I and Revolutionary Wars. Unfortunately (or in this case fortunately) another deal fell through so I could not afford the gun. Later I directed a knowledgeable collector/friend to the site and he informed me that the fusil was a good example of a fowler sporting gun, and as such exhibits the characteristics of the popular fowling pieces of the period. As a result, he asserted the claim that the gun was a military fusil a stretch at best. Some additional research on his part turned up the same gun in a recent auction described by a major auction house as a "sporting gun" affirming his conclusions. Now the dealer originally assured me that the gun was not a fowler, and I was thinking that if I had purchased the piece that I would have returned it knowing this information. Anyway, I couldn't help but think the dealer was playing me with a lot of misinformation in order to get a sale, especially in light of the fact that sometimes the distinction between true military fusils and fowlers can be ambiguous. Naively I took his word as truth because of his experience in the knowledge, but fortunately never acquired what for all intents and purposes was a nice sporting gun! I could just see the dealer asserting that no matter what other sources claimed HE thought it was a military fusil. I would like to think a more honest dealer would have answered my initial questions regarding the nature of the "military fusil" more truthfully.Just another lesson of "caveat emptor!" The story reaffirmed the idea that before buying a piece that really appeals to you to conduct your own research so you don't make a costly mistake!
I view his forum as a great opportunity to gain knowledge and insight into arms and armor (and I have learned a lot here), as well as a chance to keep each other informed regarding trends in the hobby, both positive and negative.

fernando · 2nd January 2013, 01:20 PM

Gentlemen,
In the event of this thread having further input, please be warned that
in no circumstance 'naming any names' or clearly identifiable innuendos shall will be allowed, these or other similar stories being left anonimized.

VANDOO · 3rd January 2013, 02:01 AM

I AM NOT A DEALER BUT HAVE DONE BUSINESS WITH VARIOUS ONES FOR MANY YEARS SO I HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT BUT WILL MAKE SOME OBSERVATIONS. OFTEN DEALERS THEMSELVES ARE NOT KNOWLEGABLE ENOUGH IN A CERTIAN FILED AND DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR DON'T TAKE THE TIME TO CHECK OUT WHAT INFORMATION COMES WITH AN ITEM.
FOR A DEALER TO OPENLY ADMIT HE DOSEN'T KNOW ABOUT WHAT HE IS SELLING TO POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS IS NOT GOOD FOR BUSINESS. A DEALERS REPUTATION IS VERY IMPORTANT AND IS OFTEN DIFFICULT TO BUILD OR PROTECT. DEALERS WHO LEAVE THEIR CUSTOMERS DISSATISFIED USUALLY DON'T LAST LONG AS THE WORD DOES GET AROUND. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO HAVE SOME DISSATISFIED CUSTOMERS BUT IF A DEALER COMUNICATES WITH SUCH A CUSTOMER PROBLEMS CAN OFTEN BE RESOLVED. (BUT NOT ALWAYS)
IN SUCH A CASE THE DEALER SHOULD NOT TREAT THE CUSTOMER LIKE HE KNOWS VERY LITTLE OR IS WRONG BUT SHOULD DISCUSS WHY HE THINKS THE ITEM IN QUESTION IN THIS CASE IS MILITARY OR SPORTING. THE CUSTOMER CAN GIVE HIS REASONS AND REFRENCES AS TO WHY IT IS NOT. IF NEITHER ONE WILL CHANGE THEIR MIND JUST DON'T BUY THE THING WITH NO HARD FEELINGS.
IF SOMETHING IS RECEIVED BY A CUSTOMER AND HE SAYS IT IS NOT PROPERLY DESCRIBED AND GIVES GOOD REASONS WHY AN APOLOGY AND REFUND BY THE SELLER WHEN THE ITEM IS RETURNED IN THE SAME CONDITION IS IN ORDER. NOTE! THE APOLOGY IS NOT NECESSARLY AN ADMISION OF GIVING WRONG INFORMATION BUT JUST THAT THE SELLER IS SORRY THE BUYER IS NOT SATISFIED. IN A PERFECT WORLD THERE WOULD BE NO PROBLEMS BUT IN THIS WORLD IT IS STILL POSSIBLE FOR TWO PEOPLE TO WORK OUT PROBLEMS AND PERHAPS BOTH WILL LEARN IF THEY LISTEN AND COOPERATE. PRIDE OFTEN GETS IN THE WAY OF COMMUNICATION AND RESOLVING PROBLEMS. BUT WE ARE ONLY HUMAN

JUST MY WAY OF LOOKING AT IT THERE ARE GOOD DEALERS AND BAD IN OUR COLLECTING FIELD AS EVERWHERE ELSE IN LIFE JUST DON'T BE TOO QUICK TO JUDGE BUT ALWAYS BE CAUTIOUS.

M ELEY · 3rd January 2013, 02:54 AM

This has been the story from the beginning of time, after all. When there are wares that must be sold, somethimes stories are embellished or worse, down-right faked to make a living. Perhaps sometimes, it is as Barry said, the seller's own lack of knowledge in a particular area. This can work to one's advantage at times, or very much against it, if you are fooled by a fisherman's story. If the dealer is an expert in firearms, he may be clueless with edged weapons and vice versa. That being said, there are some less than scrupulous types out there, but their dishonesty is bound to hurt thier business in the end. The best way to avoid getting burned? This forum, for one. Self-education is the strongest, followed by research. Finally, we have that old addage- 'If it looks too good to be true, than...

Battara · 3rd January 2013, 02:55 AM

I once came to a Sulu kris, but the dealer told me it was a Zulu sword brought back from the Boer Wars of South Africa. He mentioned that he got it from the grandson of the officer who once owned it.

I immediately gave him a lesson in what it really was. His partner laughed his head off, having warned the dealer about his stories 10 minutes before and that some one will one day catch him. Guess I was that some one.

On another occassion, I corrected another dealer about his $1000 "African" spear being a Moro spearhead, with documentation.

Moral of the story: story does not mean squat. Their so called expertise also doesn't mean squat. I rarely if ever buy anything unless I have researched it first and have some knowledge. Although this does not guarantee that you won't be scammed, it does lower the odds considerably. I have been burned 3 times in my collecting, all of them because I didn't have my homework done. Also listen to your gut as well.

You did well in the scenario that you described. Keep up the good work.

Rick · 3rd January 2013, 03:48 AM

Buy books first .

M ELEY · 3rd January 2013, 04:11 AM

"I ain't much for fancy book-learnin'"-

Just kidding and very well put, Rick.

Battara, loved those stories and wanted to add one of my own. I once picked up a Dutch hanger circa 1730 from an antiques market outside of Colonial Williamsburg. The seller insisted it was 'Civil War' with a whole boulderdash story of its history. The point was, he knew it wasn't CW and in his mind, less valuable. I knew what it was, liked the price and picked it up a happy man! No harm, no foul. Didn't even bother to educate him on its history or value.

1st January 2013, 11:46 PM	#1
PClemente Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42	The Higher Standard Hi All, There is a predicament that I have been aware of the past couple of years and I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention as well as open up a possible discussion. Lately I have been aware of a number of arms and armor dealers exaggerating their claims (and outright lying) about merchandise in order to appeal to more collectors. I will leave out specific names, etc. The misinformationn can simply be in the dating of an object or making false claims regarding its supposed untouched condition. For example, months ago I was interested in a supposed military fusil from the period of the F&I and Revolutionary Wars. Unfortunately (or in this case fortunately) another deal fell through so I could not afford the gun. Later I directed a knowledgeable collector/friend to the site and he informed me that the fusil was a good example of a fowler sporting gun, and as such exhibits the characteristics of the popular fowling pieces of the period. As a result, he asserted the claim that the gun was a military fusil a stretch at best. Some additional research on his part turned up the same gun in a recent auction described by a major auction house as a "sporting gun" affirming his conclusions. Now the dealer originally assured me that the gun was not a fowler, and I was thinking that if I had purchased the piece that I would have returned it knowing this information. Anyway, I couldn't help but think the dealer was playing me with a lot of misinformation in order to get a sale, especially in light of the fact that sometimes the distinction between true military fusils and fowlers can be ambiguous. Naively I took his word as truth because of his experience in the knowledge, but fortunately never acquired what for all intents and purposes was a nice sporting gun! I could just see the dealer asserting that no matter what other sources claimed HE thought it was a military fusil. I would like to think a more honest dealer would have answered my initial questions regarding the nature of the "military fusil" more truthfully.Just another lesson of "caveat emptor!" The story reaffirmed the idea that before buying a piece that really appeals to you to conduct your own research so you don't make a costly mistake! I view his forum as a great opportunity to gain knowledge and insight into arms and armor (and I have learned a lot here), as well as a chance to keep each other informed regarding trends in the hobby, both positive and negative. Last edited by fernando; 2nd January 2013 at 01:11 PM.

2nd January 2013, 01:20 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Beware Gentlemen, In the event of this thread having further input, please be warned that in no circumstance 'naming any names' or clearly identifiable innuendos shall will be allowed, these or other similar stories being left anonimized.

3rd January 2013, 03:48 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	3 Words Buy books first .

3rd January 2013, 02:01 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM NOT A DEALER BUT HAVE DONE BUSINESS WITH VARIOUS ONES FOR MANY YEARS SO I HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT BUT WILL MAKE SOME OBSERVATIONS. OFTEN DEALERS THEMSELVES ARE NOT KNOWLEGABLE ENOUGH IN A CERTIAN FILED AND DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR DON'T TAKE THE TIME TO CHECK OUT WHAT INFORMATION COMES WITH AN ITEM. FOR A DEALER TO OPENLY ADMIT HE DOSEN'T KNOW ABOUT WHAT HE IS SELLING TO POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS IS NOT GOOD FOR BUSINESS. A DEALERS REPUTATION IS VERY IMPORTANT AND IS OFTEN DIFFICULT TO BUILD OR PROTECT. DEALERS WHO LEAVE THEIR CUSTOMERS DISSATISFIED USUALLY DON'T LAST LONG AS THE WORD DOES GET AROUND. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO HAVE SOME DISSATISFIED CUSTOMERS BUT IF A DEALER COMUNICATES WITH SUCH A CUSTOMER PROBLEMS CAN OFTEN BE RESOLVED. (BUT NOT ALWAYS) IN SUCH A CASE THE DEALER SHOULD NOT TREAT THE CUSTOMER LIKE HE KNOWS VERY LITTLE OR IS WRONG BUT SHOULD DISCUSS WHY HE THINKS THE ITEM IN QUESTION IN THIS CASE IS MILITARY OR SPORTING. THE CUSTOMER CAN GIVE HIS REASONS AND REFRENCES AS TO WHY IT IS NOT. IF NEITHER ONE WILL CHANGE THEIR MIND JUST DON'T BUY THE THING WITH NO HARD FEELINGS. IF SOMETHING IS RECEIVED BY A CUSTOMER AND HE SAYS IT IS NOT PROPERLY DESCRIBED AND GIVES GOOD REASONS WHY AN APOLOGY AND REFUND BY THE SELLER WHEN THE ITEM IS RETURNED IN THE SAME CONDITION IS IN ORDER. NOTE! THE APOLOGY IS NOT NECESSARLY AN ADMISION OF GIVING WRONG INFORMATION BUT JUST THAT THE SELLER IS SORRY THE BUYER IS NOT SATISFIED. IN A PERFECT WORLD THERE WOULD BE NO PROBLEMS BUT IN THIS WORLD IT IS STILL POSSIBLE FOR TWO PEOPLE TO WORK OUT PROBLEMS AND PERHAPS BOTH WILL LEARN IF THEY LISTEN AND COOPERATE. PRIDE OFTEN GETS IN THE WAY OF COMMUNICATION AND RESOLVING PROBLEMS. BUT WE ARE ONLY HUMAN JUST MY WAY OF LOOKING AT IT THERE ARE GOOD DEALERS AND BAD IN OUR COLLECTING FIELD AS EVERWHERE ELSE IN LIFE JUST DON'T BE TOO QUICK TO JUDGE BUT ALWAYS BE CAUTIOUS.

3rd January 2013, 02:54 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	This has been the story from the beginning of time, after all. When there are wares that must be sold, somethimes stories are embellished or worse, down-right faked to make a living. Perhaps sometimes, it is as Barry said, the seller's own lack of knowledge in a particular area. This can work to one's advantage at times, or very much against it, if you are fooled by a fisherman's story. If the dealer is an expert in firearms, he may be clueless with edged weapons and vice versa. That being said, there are some less than scrupulous types out there, but their dishonesty is bound to hurt thier business in the end. The best way to avoid getting burned? This forum, for one. Self-education is the strongest, followed by research. Finally, we have that old addage- 'If it looks too good to be true, than...

3rd January 2013, 02:55 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I once came to a Sulu kris, but the dealer told me it was a Zulu sword brought back from the Boer Wars of South Africa. He mentioned that he got it from the grandson of the officer who once owned it. I immediately gave him a lesson in what it really was. His partner laughed his head off, having warned the dealer about his stories 10 minutes before and that some one will one day catch him. Guess I was that some one. On another occassion, I corrected another dealer about his $1000 "African" spear being a Moro spearhead, with documentation. Moral of the story: story does not mean squat. Their so called expertise also doesn't mean squat. I rarely if ever buy anything unless I have researched it first and have some knowledge. Although this does not guarantee that you won't be scammed, it does lower the odds considerably. I have been burned 3 times in my collecting, all of them because I didn't have my homework done. Also listen to your gut as well. You did well in the scenario that you described. Keep up the good work.

3rd January 2013, 04:11 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	"I ain't much for fancy book-learnin'"- Just kidding and very well put, Rick. Battara, loved those stories and wanted to add one of my own. I once picked up a Dutch hanger circa 1730 from an antiques market outside of Colonial Williamsburg. The seller insisted it was 'Civil War' with a whole boulderdash story of its history. The point was, he knew it wasn't CW and in his mind, less valuable. I knew what it was, liked the price and picked it up a happy man! No harm, no foul. Didn't even bother to educate him on its history or value.