Sudanese Haladie?

[Gonzalo G]

Hi, ´

A friend of mine, Martha, an advanced student in restoration, found a duble dagger in an Army Museum in Mexico, classified as an "Indian Haladie". Neverthless, she has been making some research to check this label, and she has found that there are also haladies classified as sudanese. Here, we have a very intersting subject related with the origin and use of the concept of "haladie". The dagger in question seems to be related to those classified as "sudanese", and not "indian" or "hindu". But the question it aroses is if haladies are, or not, of indian origin. If so, why we can found sudanese haladies, and not haladies in other part of the world, as far as we know? Were haladies an indian export? Or sudanese people developed another kind of "haladie"? If so, is it valid to call it also a "haladie"? Is the concept "haladie" a generic concept valid for all kind of weapons with doble or triple blade, with two oposed blades in this manner, at least?

George Cameron Stone (p. 275 from the 1999 edition) mention the rajput origin of the haladie, and only refers as third party, to an Egerton description as a weapon also used in Syria. But I was unable to find other descriptio of the origin of this weapon in Egerton, but as an arm from Egypt and Sudan (Egerton, p.168, Cat. number 189, 2002 edition), and though there is a descrption of this weapon in the number 390 of the general index of illustrations, I couldn´t find this illustration itself. I wonder if the extensive influencie of indian arsenal in the arab world, mentioned by S. Lane Pool in "Art of the Sarracens in Egypt", in the 1871 edition, and quoted by Lord Egerton, has anything to do with the making of this weapon, and if India made "trade blades" of this kind for the arab world.

In the following picture, we can see the weapon. It is similar to a weapon showed in Therion Arms, also classified as haladie, but the calligraphy is very different. I also would ask your support to translate this inscription as an aide to classify the weapon. All your comments will be very welcomed. Thank you:

[katana]

Hi Gonzalo G,

the example you have shown looks to be sudanese....similarly made daggers are often attributed to the Sudan. For example..

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=sudan

There was alot of trade in the Sudanese area and India, especially after the construction of the Suez canal......

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:M...lnk&cd=4&gl=uk

I feel the 'sudanese' haladie was a copy of the Indo persian version... a particular type of Indo-persian mace/staff also has Sudanese versions (that do not seem to appear in other parts of Africa.)

Either these variations were introduced by 'trade links' or perhaps Islamic Indians sympathetic to the Mahdi brought these to the Sudan

The picture of the first mace is Indo persian ....the second is Sudanese

Regards David

[ward]

often on Sudanese pieces the script is qoranic. Since many of the makers were illiterate the passages are copied Many times starting in the middle of a sentence and ending when they ran out of room

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Gonzalo,
If I may say so, I would like to both thank you as well as congratulate you on your brilliant posting of this indeed intriguing weapon. It seems that there have been a number of inquiries on a broad spectrum of historic edged weapons coming from several museums in Mexico, and it impresses me that such a serious approach to the study of these weapons is being observed. This is especially pleasing as in these times it seems that in too many museums, weapons are simply thrown into storage or worse, displayed with terribly inaccurate descriptions.
What is even better is that you have not only presented this weapon, the 'haladie', with known material concerning it, and fully referenced, and best of all you have asked the key question, from where might this weapon have evolved.

In response, I would say that the multiple bladed weapons were indeed quite prevalent among weapons produced by Indian armourers, and we have discussed here katars with as many as five blades, though more common are the triple bladed examples (for more see "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood, as well of course as Stone, 'katar').
The 'haladie' is likely of course associated with the 'madu' which is essentially comprised of two buffalo horns fastened together opposed as seen with haladie blades. While the madu of horns was primarily something used by religious mendicants and holy men termed 'fakirs' because they were not allowed weapons in the true sense, and these makeshift weapons were comprised of natural items (horns) .
The Rajputs may well have applied the double blade concept, as it was well established that these were deadly in crowded conditions, thus would serve well in dismounted melee, and they fashioned thier own version using the deadly blades of the 'bichwa'.

The thuluth script on your haladie, if I understand correctly , was often incomprehensible literally and comprised symbolized calligraphy that was intended to typically illiterate tribesmen during the Mahdist period in Sudan (please correct if my understanding of the thuluth is wrong . In any case, the script was acid etched in armouries in either Khartoum or Omburman.

India did indeed export many weapons to Arabia and Africa, through the Arab trade on the Malabar Coast. I am not aware of any examples of haladie made in India, however it is clear that the weapon itself in concept certainly is likely to have come from there. The weapons of Sudan reflect other weapons in thier armouries as well, and there are yataghans, the axes and others that arrived via other Ottoman trade sources.
What has always surpised me is that despite the vast diffusion to Sudan and other regions in Eastern Africa of many weapons, that as far as I know, the tulwar is never represented among them.

Thank you so much for posting this haladie, and the opportunity to discuss it.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Katana, I feel inclined to agree with you. Ward, very interesting your notation about those inscriptions. Jim, thank you for your kind words. I never thinked about the relation of the madu with this weapon, but as you pointed to it, it seems obvious. Very good point. It is also a very good point, to observe the absence of the tulwar in the Sudan arsenal. I thank you for your wise comments and attention to this thread. Your help was very valuable.
My best regards

Gonzalo G

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Gonzalo!
I have sent you a PM.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

"I am not aware of any examples of haladie made in India, however it is clear that the weapon itself in concept certainly is likely to have come from there"
-in my original post.


Jens, thank you for catching what was an obvious misstatement
What I had meant to say was that I was not aware of haladies made expressly for the Sudan, with the thuluth motif and so on. Obviously the Rajput haladies are well known, and most likely influenced the Sudanese examples indirectly, probably via the examples which came via Syria (as Stone references) or equally possible via the Arab trade in Malabar.

While I caught some incomplete sentences and edited them, apparantly I wasnt awake enough to catch this, the most obvious error! oops.
Thank you again Jens,


All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

There is no need to be sorry, Jim, I understood exactly what you did want to mean, as for the context of your words it can be deduced. I thought that obviously you have perfect knowledge of the indian haladis made for indian customers.

Jens, thank you for your support. Our friend, Andreas, talks often about you. I will treasure your image in my PC.
My best

Gonzalo