Nobility Moro Kris

Aslan Paladin · 26th September 2017, 09:51 AM

This listing for a nobility kris sword just ended and unfortunately I didn't win it. I don't see a lot of examples of this (I saw one in Cato's book, figure 53, page 86) but I know it's Tausug based on the pommel shape. It has a few missing ivory inlays that's why I was hesitant to go any higher with my bid. Hopefully the winner is a forum member and can post more pics. http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-moro...p2047675.l2557

Aslan Paladin · 26th September 2017, 09:53 AM

Further pictures of the sword.

alexish · 26th September 2017, 10:11 AM

I think that this is a newer 20th century Moro kris, due to the sharp luks on the blade. The older Moro blades tend to have more gentle and sublime luks. Additionally, the ganjar appears to be more 2D in the newer krises.

Robert · 26th September 2017, 11:27 AM

This interesting piece would really need be cleaned and clearer more detailed photos taken before I would normally post comments, but to me the hilt inlay's look more like they could be made of bone rather than of ivory. It is also not really clear if the gangya is actually a separate piece or if the line that would normally indicate this is just engraved to make it look like it is. I hope that whoever won this piece is a forum member and that they will post more information and better quality photos of it after they have received it.

Best,
Robert

Aslan Paladin · 26th September 2017, 11:38 AM

It may have somewhat sharp luks but they don't look like they have been cut into the blade but rather forged into the blade itself. The blade also shows lamination patterns as well as a separate gangya with well defined greneng and kembang kacang. And the asang asangs as well as the silver (?) fittings of the hilt especially the woven rings do not seem to be the types seen in newer kris swords. The pommel seems to be of kamagong/Philippine ebony with ivory inlays (which is usually the case with antique datu barong swords with similar style of pommel). I think this sword would be at the earliest late 19th century to at the latest first quarter of the 20th century.

All of this is of course just speculation until we get a better and closer look at the sword.

Aslan Paladin · 26th September 2017, 12:10 PM

A similar ivory/bone and ebony/horn combo pommel on a kris, albeit round instead of hexagonal pommel, can be found in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=ivory+barong, as well as these http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=ivory+kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=datu+kris

Ian · 26th September 2017, 07:02 PM

Hi AP:

Our posts crossed. Yes, I agree that the luk appear to be forged and not ground out, and that this is not like the later 20th C. tourist versions others are alluding to. The blade seems well made in a traditional manner. As I noted above, I think your dating is fairly accurate.

Ian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aslan Paladin

It may have somewhat sharp luks but they don't look like they have been cut into the blade but rather forged into the blade itself. The blade also shows lamination patterns as well as a separate gangya with well defined greneng and kembang kacang. And the asang asangs as well as the silver (?) fittings of the hilt especially the woven rings do not seem to be the types seen in newer kris swords. The pommel seems to be of kamagong/Philippine ebony with ivory inlays (which is usually the case with antique datu barong swords with similar style of pommel). I think this sword would be at the earliest late 19th century to at the latest first quarter of the 20th century.

All of this is of course just speculation until we get a better and closer look at the sword.

mross · 26th September 2017, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

I think that this is a newer 20th century Moro kris, due to the sharp luks on the blade. The older Moro blades tend to have more gentle and sublime luks. Additionally, the ganjar appears to be more 2D in the newer krises.

I agree, it looks new, and I also think the inlays are bone. I would not put to much faith in Cato.

Ian · 26th September 2017, 06:04 PM

As noted already, this blade needs cleaning before we really know what it is. However, I don't think the blade is a 20th C. piece. On cleaning, I think we would find it has a separate gangya and a fairly active laminated pattern. If so, then it is probably a late 19th C. blade. The elephant trunk area suggests Maguindanao manufacture (if we believe Cato's classification).

The hilt, on the other hand, is more difficult to define. The style could be Maguindanao or Maranao, but the type of metal will determine whether it is a royalty piece. If there is some gold in the metal fittings (probably not but could be) then it will have been for a prominent owner (powerful datu or royalty). If it's brass, then it's a much less prestigious piece. The woven bands look like they could be silver but the whole thing is too dirty to be sure. Ivory versus bone inserts similarly reflect the importance of its owner (I also think they are likely bone). The triangular inserts were still being used into the 20th C. and our friend, Battara, can tell us more about them as he has restored several barung and kris with this style of decoration.

This is a nice kris but it needs some work before we could really discuss its merits.

Ian.

Aslan Paladin · 26th September 2017, 06:26 PM

I know it has been said that Cato may not be Gospel truth when it comes to Moro swords, he did state that "One impressive style, used by Sulu, Samal and Yakan datus, featured a large kamagong knob-type pommel with triangular bone or ivory inlays." For what its worth it is possible the hilt of this kris sword is Sulu in origin (if we go by Cato).

CCUAL · 26th September 2017, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

As noted already, this blade needs cleaning before we really know what it is. However, I don't think the blade is a 20th C. piece. On cleaning, I think we would find it has a separate gangya and a fairly active laminated pattern. If so, then it is probably a late 19th C. blade. The elephant trunk area suggests Maguindanao manufacture (if we believe Cato's classification).

The hilt, on the other hand, is more difficult to define. The style could be Maguindanao or Maranao, but the type of metal will determine whether it is a royalty piece. If there is some gold in the metal fittings (probably not but could be) then it will have been for a prominent owner (powerful datu or royalty). If it's brass, then it's a much less prestigious piece. The woven bands look like they could be silver but the whole thing is too dirty to be sure. Ivory versus bone inserts similarly reflect the importance of its owner (I also think they are likely bone). The triangular inserts were still being used into the 20th C. and our friend, Battara, can tell us more about them as he has restored several barung and kris with this style of decoration.

This is a nice kris but it needs some work before we could really discuss its merits.

Ian.

i picked this up on ebay sometime ago. nothing was changed or altered what so ever, the only thing i did was clean the blade. so this is maranao or maguindanao as well?

see link:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore

26th September 2017, 09:51 AM	#1
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	Nobility Moro Kris This listing for a nobility kris sword just ended and unfortunately I didn't win it. I don't see a lot of examples of this (I saw one in Cato's book, figure 53, page 86) but I know it's Tausug based on the pommel shape. It has a few missing ivory inlays that's why I was hesitant to go any higher with my bid. Hopefully the winner is a forum member and can post more pics. http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-moro...p2047675.l2557 Attached Images Last edited by Aslan Paladin; 26th September 2017 at 02:26 PM.

26th September 2017, 09:53 AM	#2
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	Further pictures of the sword. Attached Images

26th September 2017, 12:10 PM	#6
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	A similar ivory/bone and ebony/horn combo pommel on a kris, albeit round instead of hexagonal pommel, can be found in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=ivory+barong, as well as these http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=ivory+kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=datu+kris Last edited by Aslan Paladin; 26th September 2017 at 02:11 PM.

26th September 2017, 10:11 AM	#3
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	I think that this is a newer 20th century Moro kris, due to the sharp luks on the blade. The older Moro blades tend to have more gentle and sublime luks. Additionally, the ganjar appears to be more 2D in the newer krises.

26th September 2017, 11:27 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	This interesting piece would really need be cleaned and clearer more detailed photos taken before I would normally post comments, but to me the hilt inlay's look more like they could be made of bone rather than of ivory. It is also not really clear if the gangya is actually a separate piece or if the line that would normally indicate this is just engraved to make it look like it is. I hope that whoever won this piece is a forum member and that they will post more information and better quality photos of it after they have received it. Best, Robert

26th September 2017, 11:38 AM	#5
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	It may have somewhat sharp luks but they don't look like they have been cut into the blade but rather forged into the blade itself. The blade also shows lamination patterns as well as a separate gangya with well defined greneng and kembang kacang. And the asang asangs as well as the silver (?) fittings of the hilt especially the woven rings do not seem to be the types seen in newer kris swords. The pommel seems to be of kamagong/Philippine ebony with ivory inlays (which is usually the case with antique datu barong swords with similar style of pommel). I think this sword would be at the earliest late 19th century to at the latest first quarter of the 20th century. All of this is of course just speculation until we get a better and closer look at the sword.

26th September 2017, 06:04 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	As noted already, this blade needs cleaning before we really know what it is. However, I don't think the blade is a 20th C. piece. On cleaning, I think we would find it has a separate gangya and a fairly active laminated pattern. If so, then it is probably a late 19th C. blade. The elephant trunk area suggests Maguindanao manufacture (if we believe Cato's classification). The hilt, on the other hand, is more difficult to define. The style could be Maguindanao or Maranao, but the type of metal will determine whether it is a royalty piece. If there is some gold in the metal fittings (probably not but could be) then it will have been for a prominent owner (powerful datu or royalty). If it's brass, then it's a much less prestigious piece. The woven bands look like they could be silver but the whole thing is too dirty to be sure. Ivory versus bone inserts similarly reflect the importance of its owner (I also think they are likely bone). The triangular inserts were still being used into the 20th C. and our friend, Battara, can tell us more about them as he has restored several barung and kris with this style of decoration. This is a nice kris but it needs some work before we could really discuss its merits. Ian.

26th September 2017, 06:26 PM	#10
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	I know it has been said that Cato may not be Gospel truth when it comes to Moro swords, he did state that "One impressive style, used by Sulu, Samal and Yakan datus, featured a large kamagong knob-type pommel with triangular bone or ivory inlays." For what its worth it is possible the hilt of this kris sword is Sulu in origin (if we go by Cato).