Shamshir hilts

dakary · 13th March 2022, 11:31 PM

Hi everybody,

I am wondering about shamshirs in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century. I'm wondering how different they are from more modern shamshirs. I have three questions.

1) Were the blades different significantly or have they had stasis? I have heard that they used to have a significantly less aggressive curve.

2) Did hilts change much? I know that there is a huge variety of hilts - Persian, Turkish, Syrian, Indian, etc*. but was there much change within these?

*I'm assuming that the shamshir actually existed in all these places in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century...I'm not actually sure that's right though.

Basically, is there a way to date a shamshir just by looking at the design of it (in the way you can figure out, roughly, where it is from based on the design)?

3) Is there a good resource of artwork/examples of shamshirs from the mid-15th century to mid-16th century?

Thank you!

Dan

ariel · 14th March 2022, 03:10 PM

Shamshirs are ,-all of them,- just sabers. Multiple countries and tribes had them, and the differences between them are primarily in the handles.
The main problem is that they were not regulated: each bladesmith , each workshop etc. had their own peculiar features and there always was a tremendous heterogeneity in the final products.
We can have only a few general rules on their dating and provenance, and even those are imperfect.

Generally, the curvature of the Persian blades increased with time, but I do not think we can date then reliably just by their curvature. Regretfully, we are relying on the dates in the cartouches and just pray the bladesmith put the correct one.

If they were forged out of wootz, we can guess: early ones usually had pretty simple and modest pattern, but those from 18-early 19 centuries might have had very complex patterns. Again, Ottoman ones usually had the simplest pattern no matter of their age, and the same is true about real Persian ones.

You are asking a terribly complex question, and I have only approximations. Sorry. Perhaps, somebody else here will be more definitive.

dakary · 15th March 2022, 06:08 PM

Thanks for that Ariel.

If I understand you, even though there is a huge variety in shamshir hilts (across many different groups), there is relative stasis within that variety? Because, as you say, this is complex, let me simplify with an example: would it be, just going on the hilt design, impossible to tell the difference, for example, between a 15th century Turkish hilt and a 19th century hilt?

If that's the case, I find that absolutely fascinating. If you look, for a contrasting example, at a 15th century German longsword, not only do you not find the same construction in the 19th century, but you don't even find longswords!

Perhaps this stasis shows an excellent and versatile design or at least not much change in the martial context shamshirs existed in. Certainly, in evolutionary terms, when you find stasis in the fossil record for a long time, this indicates that the creature was adaptable and versatile or that their environment also saw stasis (otherwise it would go extinct!). I think we might say the same thing about swords (they better be up for the task or they will disappear - this was certainly the case with German swords - the environment changed and so did the swords).

You'd think, however, that even if the martial context didn't drive change, fashion would driven have. Yet there is stasis. Maybe this is accounted for by a deep reverence for tradition?

I hope I'm not misunderstanding (if I am, please let me know!).

ariel · 16th March 2022, 04:38 AM

Sorry, double

dakary · 16th March 2022, 11:37 PM

So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated.

One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts?

ariel · 17th March 2022, 10:28 AM

If you are interested in Mamluk swords, get yoursels a book:

Unsal Yucel “Islamic swords and sworsmiths”

You will be greatly surprised:-)
You can find it on bookfinder.com
Very pricey….

dakary · 17th March 2022, 05:04 PM

I just looked for that book at a few places, including ABE books, and...yikes. It does look fantasic though.

I'm looking into getting a sword made and that book would cost almost as much as the sword. I've gotten in contact with Hamit over at Peserey Handicrafts (which has been recommended to me a couple times) and after some back and forth about what I am looking for, I think that a hilt like this one appeals to me (it was actually suggested by Hamit after I sent him one from the royal armouries):

It seems to have a few features that come up when looking at Mamluk hilts from that later era of the 15th-16th century. The one thing that is kind of causing me to pause is that I'm not really finding any blades on these sort of hilts that are classic Persian shamshir style curved blades. I'm more seeing slightly curved kilij style blades. So am wondering if slapping that hilt, with a curved shamshir blade is the dream of a madman because it isn't historically plausible...though I have seen some curvy blades (maybe not super curvy though) that come to a finer point in period art...I'm wondering if I need to re-think the project to include a kilij style blade instead. Or, maybe something with a gentler curve (something like you'd see on a Karabela).

This was a weird revelation to come to, if right. Because when you think of a "Mamluk" sword in the modern context, you think of something like a European interpretation of a Persian shamshir...

13th March 2022, 11:31 PM	#1
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Shamshir hilts Hi everybody, I am wondering about shamshirs in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century. I'm wondering how different they are from more modern shamshirs. I have three questions. 1) Were the blades different significantly or have they had stasis? I have heard that they used to have a significantly less aggressive curve. 2) Did hilts change much? I know that there is a huge variety of hilts - Persian, Turkish, Syrian, Indian, etc. but was there much change within these? I'm assuming that the shamshir actually existed in all these places in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century...I'm not actually sure that's right though. Basically, is there a way to date a shamshir just by looking at the design of it (in the way you can figure out, roughly, where it is from based on the design)? 3) Is there a good resource of artwork/examples of shamshirs from the mid-15th century to mid-16th century? Thank you! Dan

16th March 2022, 04:38 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry, double Last edited by ariel; 16th March 2022 at 05:02 AM.

14th March 2022, 03:10 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Shamshirs are ,-all of them,- just sabers. Multiple countries and tribes had them, and the differences between them are primarily in the handles. The main problem is that they were not regulated: each bladesmith , each workshop etc. had their own peculiar features and there always was a tremendous heterogeneity in the final products. We can have only a few general rules on their dating and provenance, and even those are imperfect. Generally, the curvature of the Persian blades increased with time, but I do not think we can date then reliably just by their curvature. Regretfully, we are relying on the dates in the cartouches and just pray the bladesmith put the correct one. If they were forged out of wootz, we can guess: early ones usually had pretty simple and modest pattern, but those from 18-early 19 centuries might have had very complex patterns. Again, Ottoman ones usually had the simplest pattern no matter of their age, and the same is true about real Persian ones. You are asking a terribly complex question, and I have only approximations. Sorry. Perhaps, somebody else here will be more definitive.

15th March 2022, 06:08 PM	#3
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks for that Ariel. If I understand you, even though there is a huge variety in shamshir hilts (across many different groups), there is relative stasis within that variety? Because, as you say, this is complex, let me simplify with an example: would it be, just going on the hilt design, impossible to tell the difference, for example, between a 15th century Turkish hilt and a 19th century hilt? If that's the case, I find that absolutely fascinating. If you look, for a contrasting example, at a 15th century German longsword, not only do you not find the same construction in the 19th century, but you don't even find longswords! Perhaps this stasis shows an excellent and versatile design or at least not much change in the martial context shamshirs existed in. Certainly, in evolutionary terms, when you find stasis in the fossil record for a long time, this indicates that the creature was adaptable and versatile or that their environment also saw stasis (otherwise it would go extinct!). I think we might say the same thing about swords (they better be up for the task or they will disappear - this was certainly the case with German swords - the environment changed and so did the swords). You'd think, however, that even if the martial context didn't drive change, fashion would driven have. Yet there is stasis. Maybe this is accounted for by a deep reverence for tradition? I hope I'm not misunderstanding (if I am, please let me know!).

16th March 2022, 11:37 PM	#5
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated. One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts?

17th March 2022, 10:28 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If you are interested in Mamluk swords, get yoursels a book: Unsal Yucel “Islamic swords and sworsmiths” You will be greatly surprised:-) You can find it on bookfinder.com Very pricey….

17th March 2022, 05:04 PM	#7
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I just looked for that book at a few places, including ABE books, and...yikes. It does look fantasic though. I'm looking into getting a sword made and that book would cost almost as much as the sword. I've gotten in contact with Hamit over at Peserey Handicrafts (which has been recommended to me a couple times) and after some back and forth about what I am looking for, I think that a hilt like this one appeals to me (it was actually suggested by Hamit after I sent him one from the royal armouries): It seems to have a few features that come up when looking at Mamluk hilts from that later era of the 15th-16th century. The one thing that is kind of causing me to pause is that I'm not really finding any blades on these sort of hilts that are classic Persian shamshir style curved blades. I'm more seeing slightly curved kilij style blades. So am wondering if slapping that hilt, with a curved shamshir blade is the dream of a madman because it isn't historically plausible...though I have seen some curvy blades (maybe not super curvy though) that come to a finer point in period art...I'm wondering if I need to re-think the project to include a kilij style blade instead. Or, maybe something with a gentler curve (something like you'd see on a Karabela). This was a weird revelation to come to, if right. Because when you think of a "Mamluk" sword in the modern context, you think of something like a European interpretation of a Persian shamshir...